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Let The Record Show

Apparently a question in the comment section of my blog has raised quite a stir.    I asked Paul Ogden if he had ever been in court to defend himself against stalking allegations?  That led Ogden to go on a rant and accuse me of trying to attack him personally and said I had no facts to base my statement.

First, I never accused him of stalking anyone, I just asked a question.   Second, my question was based on a deposition he gave involving a lawsuit he filed against the state Department of  Insurance over what he claimed was wrongful termination.  The Court dismissed his lawsuit.  I’ve pasted that relevant part of the deposition below since it is public record.

4
1   P A U L  K.  O G D E N, having been first duly sworn to
2     tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
3     truth related to said matter, was examined and
4     testified as follows:
5     DIRECT EXAMINATION,
6       QUESTIONS BY ERIC J. BEAVER:
7   Q Please state your name for the record.
8   A My name is Paul K. Ogden, O-g-d-e-n.
9   Q Have you ever been deposed before?
10   A I’m not positive.  I think maybe I have.  I was
11     involved in a protective order case and a defamation
12     case in the early 90s, actually it was 1990.  There
13     might have been a deposition done then.
14   Q What was the nature of the protective order case?
15   A Protective order was like the early days of the
16     protective orders where you could just go in and get
17     an order by going into the small claims court, and
18     they would have the allegations outlined, and they
19     would just sign off on it.
20         A woman I knew from law school had filled one out
21     because I had sent her flowers for her birthday.  So
22     again, that was the early days of the protective
23     orders, and they’ve changed things since then.  And
24     the defamation case was against her, too.
25   Q Okay.  Was the protective ordered actually entered?

5
1   A It was entered then dismissed.
2   Q Okay.
3   A The whole thing was dismissed.
4   Q Okay.
5   A Went up to Marion Superior Court so —
6   Q So it was — how long do you estimate it was actually
7     in effect?
8   A Well, the temporary one would have been in effect
9     until the hearing in Superior Court.  It might have
10     been like six months.  I can’t remember how long it
11     took.
12   Q So was there a preliminary order and then a permanent
13     order?
14   A Right.  And then we took it up, and it got dismissed.
15   Q Okay.  And what was the name of the lady?
16   A Gloria K. Grinnan, G-r-i-n-n-a-n.  I think she’s
17     married now to someone named Mitchell.
18   Q Okay.
19   A And the defamation case was against her as well.
20   Q And what was the result of the defamation case?
21   A I just agreed to dismiss it in conjunction with her
22     dismissing the protective order thing.
23   Q Okay.  In what court do you recall filing the
24     defamation action?
25   A Marion Superior Court.  I don’t know which one.  I

6
1     think it was in John Price’s court back then.  He —
2     but I don’t know what number.
3   Q Okay.
4   A He’s no longer a judge.

You can draw your own conclusions about whether this matters.  Me, I thought it seemed odd that a woman you only sent flowers to would go to court ask for an order of protection that lasted for about six months, so I asked a question.  Ogden could have just given me a straight answer, but instead decided to rant.  Oh well, such is life.

  • guest

    Damn. Who p155ed in your cornflakes? Talk about taking things personal. Geez

  • Nick

    Not cool.

  • Hector

    I never understand why people deny things when they are recorded in writing.

  • IndyErnie

    I've been turned down before when asking girls out but…. I've never had a girl file stalking charges against me and I‘ve dated a whacked out girl or two.
    What's up Paul? Did you have a hard time understanding NO?

  • dianavice

    Wow, you have to go back 20 years to a situation that you really know nothing about to try to discredit Paul Ogden? It only makes you look small. Nothing revealed in the deposition would cause me to lose respect for him, but stooping to this level sure makes me lose respect for you, Abdul. Paul Ogden is a decent man who exposes a lot of corruption. I can't help but wonder if you're just mad because he exposes the corruption of some of your dear friends.

  • indyhardr

    You would you would think with all of the crap that is going on in this city that these two would grow up.You both sound like a couple of teenage girls from Carmel. You are both extreemly smart dudes, you are both looseing street cred with the childish actions.

    Neither one of you became succesful by adhereing to the Shirley Temple school of bedside manner. The sad thing is that you both have an increable passion for our city,how about usieng it for the good and not these little bitch slaps.

  • Hector

    Indyhardr, were you absent when they taught spelling??

  • seanshepard

    And this is relevant to anything anybody is doing currently exactly why? Did I stumble into the People Magazine blog on accident?

  • pogden297

    Gee, Hector, what exactly do you think was “recorded in writing?” Please, Indyernie, point to exactly where I was ever accused of “stalking” her and refused to take “no” for an answer You and Abdul are just making up a set of facts which did assume exist but does not.

    Abdul if would have done research instead of just throwing out allegations, you would have found out that this wasn't a casual acquantience but is someone who I went to law school with and someone with whom I had been a friend with for five and a half years before the lawsuit. She was also someone I tried to help with mental health issues and encouraged her to seek professional help. That's all public record.

    Pretty awful thing to do, wasn't it Abdul? Yep, trying to help out a friend because you're worried about her welfare and get her into counseling. Yes, string me up for that one.

    But as the saying, no good deed goes unpunished. I found out later that she had another personality and she was telling other people crazy things about me, including that she didn't know who I was and was afraid I would going to physically attack her. Again, this is someone I had known for six years and been alone with hundreds of times.

    It was the most bizarre thing I have ever experienced in my life. I so wished someone had told me the crazy stuff she was saying because I would have stopped taking her calls and ended any communication with her. But unfortunately I didn't find out what she was saying until she filed for a protective order.

    The year was 1990, the protective order statute was new and anyone could walk into any small claims court, be handed a form with pre-printed allegations on them, sign it, not under oath, and the Clerk would stamp the judges signature on it. Temporary protective order granted. (The Marion County procedure was changed later because of what happened to me and a couple politicians around that time.)

    There was positively no stalking allegation. The allegation in the p.o. was that I had threatened to cause her physical harm because I sent her flowers once, sent her a birthday card and called her on the phone.

    Again, it was bizarre, irrational and didn't make any sense. But it was a situation I had to deal with. I, however, wasn't about to agree to an order saying I threatened someone with physical harm when I never did. The case ended up going to to the Marion County Municipal Court. At my request, Judge Metz ordered her to undergo a psychological exam. She went to a session with the psychologist and was supposed to come back. Instead she chose to dismiss the case.

    This is all public record. If you have no respect for my privacy (or more importantly getting the facts straight), you should have had respected her privacy and redacted her name from your post. I hope you will still do that. She's not a public person, has a career of her own, and doesn't deserve to have her name plastered in some public blog by someone trying to discredit me. If people are that curious about who the woman is they are welcome to go to the courthouse and start digging.

    Abdul, you continue to show you have no class. But hey keep the allegations coming. It shows you are out of intellectual ammunition. Did you hear I killed a man in Reno just to watch him die? Yep, it's true.

  • http://twitter.com/IndyStudent Matthew Stone

    When Abdul asks if Ogden has ever been to court for stalking (IE charged with stalking criminally or civily, because you don't go to court for allegations you haven't been charged with), he's “just asking questions.”

    When someone is concerned that the CIB isn't being honest about their financial situation, or that Brizzi is going easy on alleged drug dealers (who was actually criminally charged!) because of a conflict of interest, it's a “conspiracy theory.”

    I wish DISQUS posts allowed embedded images, because a The More You Know picture would be perfect right here.

  • pogden297

    Thanks, Matt. We know Abdul isn't being honest when he claims he was just asking questions about a “stalking” allegation that was never made. Of course, he was tryinig to smear my reputaton. It's the old “when did you stop beating your wife” allegation. That's okay, I can live with that and expect no less from Abdul who has zero class.

    But now he's published the name of a woman, a practicing attorney, who I'm sure does not appreciate having her name hauled out publicly by Abdul. That's the difference between Abdul and me. I have every reason to be upset about the hell that woman put me through 20 years ago, but I still would have never published her name. Abdul, on the other hand, doesn't even know her, yet he feels at the liberty to publish her name, dragging her into this and putting me in a position where I have no choice but to defend my reputation by telling what actually happened in the case, which requires talking about mental health issues and psychologists.

    Hopefully Abdul will show a little decency and at least redact the woman's name. You'll notice I always just use pronouns in my posts. If people are so curious about her name, they can always go to the courthouse and pull the file from wherever it is in storage. It's public record.

  • joneaster

    I'm not saying I'm better than anyone else as a blogger, but I never make it personal. This is getting awfully nasty!

    And…after you just won that award, Abdul.

  • http://twitter.com/IndyStudent Matthew Stone

    And Ernie demonstrates my point perfectly. Even though Abdul never flat out says Paul was charged with stalking and went to court to defend himself, it's implied. So when Ernie reads it (and likely the many people who read this blog but don't post comments), he posts something like this.

    Now if Ernie goes back to read it, he'll never see anything about “stalking charges.” that he thinks Paul Ogden was faced with. Because they don't exist.

  • dianavice

    The only scandal here is who at the Attorney General's office is feeding you information and records. Makes me wonder if justice is blind at the AG's office.

  • Hector

    Paul, you always claim that you are for openness and transparency in public records and public matters. Is there anything in Abdul's post that was not public info. I think you embarrassment over stalking this woman is clouding your judgement.

  • melyssa

    Wow…that was very low Abdul. You didn't harm Paul Ogden with your misrepresentation of him, you harmed yourself.

    I've heard people say things about you that point to your untrustworthiness. Now I've seen it with my own eyes.

  • colefarmer

    Wow. Apparently Pauol Ogden has his little troops coming to his defense. Until Ogden replied I thought he was just a creepy guy who years ago obssessed on a girl to the point she needed protection. Now I see he is a guy who just told me an attorney in town has a split personality and he tried to save her. Until then I did not know that about her. Now that he has made that public, her name in a document is minscule compared to what I know of her and all attorneys in the Indiana bar know about her. Good job Ogden, claim you helped the victim and then tell about all her problems. Nice.

  • IndyErnie

    Sounds to me like the lady in question may have a claim against Paul. Is it proper for one attorney to publish that another has a mental condition? Could it be that Paul is still trying to “help” someone who clearly doesn't want “help” from him? Maybe another order is needed in this case.

  • http://twitter.com/IndyStudent Matthew Stone

    Abdul backs Paul into a corner implying he's stalking someone when it's not the case. Paul has the choice to defend himself or do nothing. What would you recommend?

  • http://twitter.com/IndyStudent Matthew Stone

    I'm no one's “little troop”.

    It sure must be nice to hurl insults and post hyperbolic comments under the protection of anonynimity.

    And I'll ask the same from you as I did to Hector, what would you do in Ogden's case? Abdul says he's “just asking questions” and unless Ogden explains the situation, in full, then Abdul's out-of-context post and implications of stalking will go unrefuted.

  • VOR

    Paul Ogden may be a decent man who runs a blog that points out many public policy disagreements he has with local officials (mostly Republicans), but I challenge anyone to point out one piece of corruption Paul Ogden has exposed.

  • Think Again

    I'm in no troop either, Matthew, but this is the sorriest post/comments I've ever seen on this blog. Nobody wins.

  • Abdul Dishonored Himself

    This is a bizarre post to say the least and it shows the lack of character and class by Abdul. What is the purpose of Abdul making these statements in the public unless only to discredit Paul and to attempt to shut down Paul from speaking about corruption of public officials such as Abdul's good drinking buddy, Carl Brizzi.

    Abdul, you are a foolish man who lacks integrity and based upon your implied actions, you have shown the public that you are not a honorable person. We expect a lot more out of you and unless you issue a formal apology towards Paul and the woman cited, may this blog serve a notice to the public that you cannot be trusted and are just as dangerous to our community for the evils you display.

  • seanshepard

    There is a hard lesson to be learned in life sometimes and it is “stay away from crazy people”. Crazy people cannot be reasoned with, aren't rational and generally, in their mind, have “nothing to lose” by saying or doing whatever they believe will harm you if so inclined. They can range from the narcissistic to the outright schizophrenic. Just stay away.

    I've got to side with Paul Ogden on this one. If we weren't there, don't know the circumstances, don't know if this lady was even rational than we don't even begin to have the facts and, really, it's none of our business anyway.

  • Barnard

    This is shocking! Shocking how childish Abdul/Ogden are. I remember engaging in things like this with “friends” back in 8th grade. Your credibility just fell off a cliff as far as I'm concerned.

    Abdul, you should be embarrassed by attacking so publicly. And to what end? No end! What does any of this have to do with political discourse? I know it's your blog and you can write anything you want, etc, etc. That is absolutely true but I think you just did some real damage to your “brand”.

    A good question to ask is what would your mothers say about your behavior. I'm guessing they would disapprove.

  • John Howard

    I was scratching my head wondering why Abdul even brought up the subject, let alone had done some research on it at the law library.

    Then I remembered, Paul is running for School Board in Pike. It's the old Eric Dickerson schmear tactic all over again. And we all were led into thinking that was a Dem-run slime-throwing episode.

    Perhaps it wasn't after all.

  • Think Again

    I'm sitting here trying to answer this question: how would I have treated this if I were (Abdul/Paul) ?

    It's pretty obvious that someone told Abdul about Paul's past run-in with this woman–probably someone who disagrees with paul on any number of issues–take your pick.

    So, several days ago, Abdul snarks at Paul as a “stalker” on this blog.

    Paul feels the need to respond, and Abdul lashes back with the above post.

    I'm scratching my head on this one, Abdul…I gotta admit, I usually like your posts, even the ones with which i disagree. But this one is over the top. Lots of schrapnel on this one–the human fallout is strong.

    And Paul, I'm not sure how you furthered your case by completely mentioning the case and the woman's name. You could easily have relayed the above information and indicated you had left the woman's name out to protect her 19 years later.

    I need a mental shower.

  • melyssa

    Funny you say that, John. This also made me think of Eric Dickerson's smear in 2006.

    Can anyone say “Dumpster Diver”? I just never thought I'd be saying it about Abdul!

  • innercitymom

    This is really, really sleazy, Abdul. I don't know any of the people involved, and I only occasionally post here. But I always thought you were a decent guy. But this isn't decent at all. I can't imagine being either of the people involved in this case. My heart goes out to both of them. It's just so sleazy.

  • Brian Guyton

    Cut it out already. Abdul should not have posted that a woman in Indianapolis needed protection from Paul Ogden? Ogden's response is she is psychotic and has a split personality? Ogden puts himself out there with his blog. Throws scandals around like they are candy at halloween, then is impervious to his background? Come on, let's get past this and quit even talking about it. There are more important things to talk about, unles you were Paul's victim back in the day then he put 5 paragraphs of how you were crazy on the internet.

  • colefarmer

    I am confused at the people on this blog who somehow think Abdul was wrong. He got the info, should he have done nothing with it? If Ogden is running for public office, which I did not know, I am sure the voters would want to know about his background. if it is not true, then that will come around also. The 90's was the dot com era, not the protective order era. Did anyone else have a protective order filed against them? Please share.

  • http://twitter.com/IndyStudent Matthew Stone

    Abdul shouldn't have posted it because it wasn't relevant to any issue. It was done strictly to convince readers that Paul Ogden had to go to court for charges of stalking (which he didn't), basically to discredit him as a person.

    And because Abdul is “just asking questions” and says Paul could clear it all up by answering his questions, Paul does so by telling the whole story.

    Did he have to tell the whole story? I'm not in his shoes, so I really don't know. Somehow I doubt it would convince Abdul either way.

  • Fed up

    Yes, Paul can mention whether an alleged victim has a mental condition in defense of criminal allegations, if its relevant. You are confusing confidentialy between attorney & client. She was NOT a client of Paul's.

    Also, I'm not sure why you defend Abdul so much…you are very much a part of the LOSER crowd he defined to Ballard immediately after the election. Why do you think he turned his back on those who campaigned for him…we were losers, albeit we helped him win the Mayor's office, go figure. Abdul doesn't speak too kindly about YOU either.

    By the way Ernie, it was nice talking with you the other day, yes we must get together before thursday, OK? :-)

    Your REAL friend.

  • Indiana_Barrister

    Wow! Nice to know I can still cause a stir. It really is amazing what people who know nothing will write under the guise of knowing everything.

    Anyway, I hope you all had fun. I'm moving on to more substantive issues in the morning. And just for the record, am I the only person here who thinks it odd that if Ogden was trying to “help a friend” he'd sue them for defamation?

    Oh well, such is life, and we got a lot of nice hits today, too!

  • Rico

    It seems you've learned a very valuable lesson from your hero President Alinsky, Abdul–attack the credilbility of those who oppose you or disagree with you. Don't be a sleeze merchant! It is beneath even you.

  • yawn

    I'm a bit confused by this blog. If we are outting stuff, how come Abdul shows up at this address 5912 Sycamore Forge, which is registered to INDYHOES.com?”

    A “hoe” is the ultimate insult to a black woman, isn't it Abdul? And what about reserving that “FirstRealBlackPresident.com?” Were you hoping Carl and Tim might help you in that quest? OMG, LMAO!!!!

    Zabasearch showing a residence of record for Abdul Hakim Shabazz to be 5912 Sycamore Forge–notice the Shabazz reference in all these links….

    Abdul, bad! Bad! Who's the “hoe?” Carl and Timmy been rubbing off on ya, baby???

    1.
    Indyhoes.com – Indy Hoes
    JJ Web Solutions 5912 Sycamore Forge Drive Indianapolis, IN 46254. US Domain Name: INDYHOES.COM Administrative Contact, Technical Contact: JJ Web Solutions …
    whois.domaintools.com/indyhoes.com
    2.
    Firstrealblackpresident.com – First Real Black President
    Oct 28, 2009 … JJ Web Solutions 5912 Sycamore Forge Drive Indianapolis, IN 46254. US Domain Name: FIRSTREALBLACKPRESIDENT.COM …
    whois.domaintools.com/firstrealblackpresident.com
    Show more results from whois.domaintools.com
    3.
    janb.com Whois – j an b – Who.is
    JJ Web Solutions Email Masking Image @yahoo.com 5912 Sycamore Forge Drive Indianapolis, IN 46254. US 317-295-0799 fax: 123 123 1234 …
    who.is/whois/janb.com/ – Cached
    4.
    http://www.janb.com | WebsitesValue.Net
    JJ Web Solutions jdshabazz@yahoo.com 5912 Sycamore Forge Drive Indianapolis, IN 46254. US 317-295-0799 fax: 123 123 1234. Record expires on 22-Dec-2010. …
    websitesvalue.net/www.janb.com – Cached
    5.
    Whois information for domain janb.com
    JJ Web Solutions mymailjdshabazz@xisthebestyahoo.com 5912 Sycamore Forge Drive Indianapolis, IN 46254. US 317-295-0799 fax: 123 123 1234 …
    whois.uitat.ro/info/janb.com – Cached

  • Indiana_Barrister

    Easy, in my brother's younger and more irresponsible days as a web designer he ran some legal businesses the rest of us weren't crazy about. It cost him his marriage and caused a bunch of unnecessary grief. I tried talked him out of the business when I temporarily stayed with him when I first came to Indy. Nothing illegal, just really annoying. Luckily since then he got his act together and is now happily re-married with and he and his wife and daughters are doing great. I was glad I could help my family and they all lived happily ever after.

  • http://recordsresources.com public records

    i think, There's always negativity in sports towns because it's natural, comes with the territory of being a fan.

  • Rhondaleebaby69

    Except this is all public record and anyone can have access to it.

  • Rhondaleebaby69

    You’re right about one thing…Abdul didn’t harm Ogden’s reputation (how can it be any poorer?) and he only succeeded in harming his own.

  • Rhondaleebaby69

    Except now Ogden IS running for office (Marion County Superior Court) so all this should come up as well as his dismissal from the Department of Insurance.

  • 5dashBee^

    Listen Abdul! What a nasty little man you are! If you had any kind of integrity you would apologize to Paul Ogden and stop being a weasel! Why you have a vendetta against Paul Ogden is beyond me! Your post imply you think he is insignificant if that is true why are you wasting your time attacking him! The more and more I listen to you the more you sound like a Brezhnev Era Apparchick touting the party line! You know and we know that you know you are full of it!

  • Gabe B.

    Ogden is scum,and certainly a communist. Im not surprised at all bythis story,or him running this womans name through he mud for attention.the latest scandal involving his recent review by the board just proves this communist cannot control himself,and is an attention whore.I believe his professional career results as a lawyer speaks for itself.How anyone can defend this communist ahole is beyond me.He wants free speech but only for himself.Just do a google search on him and you will see just what kind of joker he really is.Hes just a pssy loudmouth with a website and a failing career,that has been failing since the day it started.F.U DIRTY PAUL, and dity paul sympohizers!! I hope your communist ass gets ran out of town!!