Thank you THANK YOU for the last line on your post.

Property tax caps are already the law. This will just graft an unwieldy chunk of text into the Constitution

BS to Muncie whose fire department was bloated by about 50%. I imagine other public sector unions are quite overstaffed as well. The Muncie Fire Department remains what it was, a very competent and select group of people. It is merely leaner-there is still plenty of fat in it. Anyone interested in a factual basis for their opinions on this matter are referred to Mr. Larry Riley's columns over the years in the local Muncie Gannett mess.

While I understand the sentiment in not discussing property tax elimination since it doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of happening 50 states do have property taxes and not one has eliminated them – not that there's anything wrong with leading the pack), the fact is you do discuss Ballard's re-election. The odds of that happening are about as great as property tax repeal.

Paul, as much as I appreciate your contributions, shouldn't you be out making sure your malpractice insurance is all paid up?

It is “overwhelmingly politically popular” because it is misunderstood by many Hoosiers. It indeed is causing local government to cut back. The following is what is not clear to much of the public.

During 2010 and 2011 LSA projects that more than 70% of homeowners will not hit the cap (see http://www.castoncomets.org/2010_gen_assbly_gov...). When their tax bill increases the “wake up call” will occur if not before.

The General Assembly will pass this. What will be interesting will be the next several months leading up to November. It will be a great opportunity for citizen enlightenment and to foster civic engagement.

Articles and data on this topic are being compiled at http://www.castoncomets.org.

Still amazing that the collective wisdom in the state capital is so much higher than local folks. Just amazing that local folks can not handle matters be it taxation, services, government structure, etc. and lack the wisdom and will to make changes that are so evident to the collective wisdom of the state officials. What with the highly efficient and very highly effective way the state agencies function why is it not evident to locals that the state always knows best. As a farm person have shoveled a whole lot of that stuff over the years, but then I am just one of those local bumkins out in the hinderlands that just does not have the ability to make decisions for myself so thankfully the state folks will decide what is best for me.

Let's be clear, this idea is more a commission schedule than taxpayer protection (assessments anyone?).

The left hand side of this equation is factored by a divisive notion, 1, 2 or 3% cap, multiplied by a public pensioned opinion of “market value.” Yeah, the people who pretend to determine “property value,” also benefit financially (unnaturally, without risk) from an illegitimate or perverse interest in that other than citizen centered process.

Repeal already exists, naturally, in the market form of devaluation, depopulation & abandonment. Momentum is rolling, fast away from obscure tax policy & the inarticulate tones of public self servants. Any idea how that'll look in a retrospective view of the census?

It's curious, that several people holding the highest posts within the GA, have suggested these “caps” are a step toward repeal- what's that about? And what was up in 2006, when the GA voted unanimously for repeal?

http://www.post-trib.com/news/1975182,gaassembl...
January 6, 2010
BY JON SEIDEL, (317) 631-7400
INDIANAPOLIS — A popular bill to install Indiana's property tax caps in the constitution is steamrolling through the Republican-led state Senate, and even local lawmakers who find the measure premature believe there's little they can do to intervene…

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2010/jan/06/ta...
First of all, the tax caps are not a tax freeze. It is only a cap on the level of payment of a percentage of the gross assessed value of property. If more tax revenue is needed, they can simply raise the assessed value, which in turn will raise taxes. The assessed value of property is the determining value used to calculate the amount of property taxes owed…

As much as I desire property tax elimination, one thing I would prefer even to that is the elimination of the state as the middle man. This process of sending property taxes to the state, who then returns some of it to the locale from which it came, minus some skimmed of the top for the state, and some more skimmed and sent to other locales from which it didn't come, is a load of crap. It's inefficient and gives the state inordinate power. It causes growing municipalities to waste money on extra censuses just to recoup the money of its' taxpayers. Let our money stay at home and work for us where we live.

A step towards repeal is a nod towards the popularity of the idea of repeal. What's the word I'm looking for… 'Mollify”.

GP, you have a solid idea there.

When we send property taxes to our county treasurer, and some/all of that money is recalculated through the state, there is hidden cost. A very REAL cost…those dollars don't get shoved around for free.

When Gov. Bayh was in power in 1990, and we had a brief recession (compared to this one), he delayed State Gen. Fund payments to school districts by two months–twice–to roll one payment into the next budget year. A clever bookeeping trick, except: local school districts had obligated themselves via teacher and supplier contracts. To make up the difference, the local districts had to get short-term Tax Anticipation Warrants.

Guess who wrote 90% of those warrants' federally-required Bond Counsel Opinion Letters (for tax-exempt status)? Ice Miller. One estimate was, IM made about $40 million in legal fees by that one small accounting shift. All they did, effectively, was create one Opinion Letter, briefly research each school district's specific status, and fill in the blanks. Pushed down the food chain, it created a horrific problem for the folks who ultimately paid the bills–local school districts.

Now, if they'd had warning, and could've factored that borrowing cost into their annual budgets, that's one thing. But these actions came with no warning. And tens of millions in borrowing costs for those TAWs.

And remember this: when a school district budgets, it passes a budget for the next calendar year, in August. It is revised and ultimately approved by the state (formerly the Property Tax Control Board, now the Dept. of Local Govt Finance) hopefully by late in the year.

And here's the catch: that budget is for a CALENDAR year. So a school district that has a 2010-approved budget, is paying bills (from teacher contracts, supplier contracts, etc.) over TWO school years, because in August, the whole contract thing starts up again for them.

And under this governor, as well as the tail-end of Kernan's administration, over half of those DLGF approvals come well into the calendar year. So the school districts are given unofficial “advice” on how to proceed spending calendar eyar money in January, without formal approval.

We need less government, and more common sense. If this were a business, handling its income-expenses-cashflow this badly, we'd shoot it and declare it bankrupt.

There is huge savings in simply streamlining the process and making it, well…have more common sense.

It is an insane prescription for disaster. Any fix is 2 years away–minimum–from effective implementation at the local school level.

And, how did the Article XIII property tax caps work out for folks? They lasted fairly intact for more than 100 years until we ran out of honest judges.

Abdul, lots of things that are best for the people are long shots and don't look at all possible in the onset…especially when it threatens the power elites.
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Once upon a time it did not look like blacks would ever be treated as equal to whites. Aren't you glad that there were not cowards in that particular fight who were all too willing to back down because it didn't look possible?
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And you should be above making a crack like you just did to Ogden.

Melyssa, please don't ever again compare the struggle for civil rights, to the potential elimination of a property tax.

Not even close.

LOL LOL LOL ROTFLOAF LOL LOL LOL

TA, I see unfair taxation as a form of slavery. The taxation of our property literally makes us serfs to the government with no control over how our property is taxed or if we'll be able to keep our homes throughout our lives. Food, clothing, and shelter are the basic foundation of human needs according to Maslow. Some would argue to have shelter (a home) is more important to human survival than civil rights.

Let's go with “mollify;” imagining it's the other stuff they do & say that's… genuine.

Well, Melyssa, if you make that argument, and try to do so seriously, you'd be, sad to say, wrong.

Unfair taxation is ridiculous and burdensome. It thrusts undue burden on taxpayers. It is NOT slavery, not even close. I abhor it, and I'll work to repeal bad taxes and un-elect those who enact them.

Please, you're not the kind of poster who easily resorts to hyperbole.

TA…unfair taxation is more than ridiculous and burdensome if you lose your home due to unfair taxation.
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Some people killed themselves over their property tax bills. True story. One of my best friends had two gay neighbors and lived off Allisonville in 2003. One partner killed himself so the other could have the life insurance money and keep the house. That was during the 2003 property tax increase. More lives were lost to suicide in the 2007 nightmare.
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I'm sorry that you thought I was being glib. Anytime the government taxes my labor or my property, it is a form a slavery for I am forced to work for the government. I find the whole matter to be as repulsive and immoral as the violation of individual civil rights.
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I am most serious.

And TA…there are plenty of people in this town who literally lost their homes to foreclosure due to the hike property taxes. It is as immoral as violating a person's civil rights.

I hear you, Melyssa, but I'm in the real estate biz. Trust me when I tell you: the stories of people losing their homes SOLELY because of property tax increases are grossly over-hyped.

There are some, to be sure. But not very many.

I teach a (licensing) continuing ed course twice a year, and since mid-2006 I've purposely asked all my students to send me e-mailed stories which would support this claim you repeat. I have taught over 800 students in that timeframe–some are repeat attendees–and I've gotten five e-mailed responses to my challenge.

Four of the five lost their houses because their incomes dropped drastically and two of them had ridiculously predatory loans.

I'm mildly aware of the Allisonville Rd. case you mentioned; I do not know the homeowners, but have friends who do. Let's just say their recitation of the story differed, and there were other factors involved. You probably have a better handle on that than I do.

We're all prisoner to high property taxes–some of us moreso than others. There are pockets in this city who paid artificially-low taxes for years–MK comes to mind. Improper assessment performed by unqualified assessors was the main culprit.

When the pendulum swung back, it smacked those folks disproportionately hard. There are some other pockets in the city similarly-affected.

I know you won't cry crocodile tears on this, but I can drive you by 20 commercial parcels who overpaid for 10 years or more. Overpaid in the sense that their proportionate share of the overall property tax burden was unfair.

Look, our proptax system is broken. Badly. We've seen the legislature give voters some say, and we removed the assessment function form township folks. Which was way overdue. Now, the system purports to evaluate properties base don real market value. That pendulum will be a real reality check for many, but…over the long haul, this is the safest way to do proptaxes, IF we're going to use proptaxes at all.

Typically I respect your posts. The hyperbolic tone, and likening it to the civil rights movement, is over the top. Sorry. Doesn't fly with me. It is a crisis, and it needs strong leadership.

But I don't see folks being water-cannoned on Meridian Street. Or forced to accept substandard wages, housing or public accomodation as a result. And I don't see people being killed.

Where was your righteous indignation when township assessors in this county had nine different evaluation tools, and opinions, for valuation? Those kinds of gross errors, and downright shoddy work, over time, affect us all.

The under-assessed parcel in Warren means we in Washington pay a little more, proportionately, for the library. And vice-versa. This is not a zero-sum game. The entire process has to be more professional, because it levels the playing field for all property owners.

Without that equitable field, we're all just pissing up a rope.

The property tax is particularly egregious when about 50 percent or more of the tax is to support our public schools.

I cannot find ANYTHING in our Constitution authorizing the taxation of my private home for the support of public schools.

However, one CAN see where property taxation IS authorized — indeed, it is the ONLY occurrence of property taxation for support of public schools anywhere in the Constitution….

“Taxes on the property of corporations, that may be assessed by the General Assembly for common school purposes.” — Article 8 Section 2

You say that government can use any method they want to support the public schools?

I disagree.

The beginning of the part of the Constitution that specifically describes the funding methods for public schools begins thus…

“The Common (PUBLIC) School fund shall consist of…” Read that again…”SHALL CONSIST OF” This in NOT discretionary. Government was not given a blank check.

The ONLY constitutionally-authorized method of supporting the public schools is contained at Article 8 Section 2. You will not see the taxation of your private home listed.

Of course, some lawyer in a robe (LiaR) found it there….somehow…and thus ruled that government COULD tax your private home to support the public schools.

Gotta love LIEyers and LiaRs

I think it is sad that Abdul does not see that the fight to eliminate property taxes has merit simply because the political will of the power elites (who profit off the current system) isn't there.

I think it is tacky that he took a cheap shot another attorney in this public forum. I always thought there was an unwritten code among lawyers and what they say about other lawyers in public.

It makes me ponder that perhaps he is more concerned about what the politicians think of him rather than what is just and MORAL.

I think it would be far more moral to RE-legalize marijuana and to tax it while, at the same time, eliminating homestead property taxes.

Or it would be moral to tax services (which are a luxury) and eliminate the tax on the basic human need of shelter. A plan to do this was brought before the Indiana Senate to explore. The numbers were there and would replace homestead taxes.

The sordid story behind all of this is that the politicians, who cannot control their spending habit, use our homes literally as collateral. That's every bit as immoral as the subjugation of women and blacks.

That's the real story.

Stolen life & time, squandered, or consumed in percentages, by the greed of a morbidly proportioned public sector, is more slavery than it is liberty.

Melyssa,

Your memory must be getting bad. I've never been in favor of eliminating property taxes. I've always believed the land should help pay for the benefits it receives, i.e. police, fire, road and sewer. I've always believed the best way to reduce property taxes has been to reduce the amount of government. Repeal is not going to happen! Live in the real world.

Abdul,

Your thinking is as backwards as the narrow minded and self serving Republicans who controlled our state in the 1920's. I'm sure they didn't think civil rights had anything to do with their “real world” either.

Fortunately, people of courage and a great sense of morality did.

Currently I pay more than $200 a month to state and municipal income taxes off the top of my regular paycheck. That's a minimum of $2400 per year. Are you saying that these services should cost more than that?

Everyone should look at their last paystub of the year and see how much income tax was taken from the top to pay for “basic services”. Then start adding up all the other fees and taxes you pay including your license plate, professional license, sales tax, cigarette tax, booze tax, and on and on.

I don't mind paying for services I use. I just don't want them attached arbitarily in a hidden manner on my property tax.

I live in the real world made up of people, not the one you recognize made up of corrupt self serving politicians which includes guys like Brizzi and Tom John.

You and I both know that the property tax problem is caused by uncontrolled spending by politicians, and appointees who cannot control their addiction to the free flow of money from the bond banks.

You and I both know that the property tax problem was most certainly NOT caused by police, fire, sewers, the roads, and basic municipal services. Don't confuse the issue. You should be above it.

I know right from wrong. And the taxing of our shelter, which is a fundamental human need for survival, is immoral and needs to be eliminated.

'Tis true, Abdul has been open to the discussion (inviting forum & introducing the topic on several occasions), but never favored repeal. Dr. Styring (economist) held that very position for decades, until recently, & has been joined by fellow IU economist Dr. Craig Johnson.

It's fair to point out that land neither renders nor receives services- people do. Likewise, land doesn't commit life & time to the payment of what many consider to be overcharges labeled as taxes- people do. Personifying the inanimate has the effect of objectifying people; a paradigm problem that separates people from solutions, treating them less of flesh & more like an ATM.

Indeed Dave. We're like flesh and blood ATMs to politicians.

After reading your response Melyssa, I don't think I'm the one who is confused.

So Abdul? What part do I have confused? Because I think I'm pretty darned clear.

One of my co-workers (David Price) came to me today to explain his situation from a modest home they bought in 2007. He purchased the $176,000 house with a fixed rate mortgage at 6.25%. His 30 payment was $1217.

His assessment drastically increased post-2077 from $176,000 to $230,000.

Because of his increased assessment (after the housing meltdown) his new mortgage payment is now a whopping $2250 a month!

David heard about my involvement on this front and came to me for help. Unfortunately, there are 20,000 appeals ahead of his, and being new homeowners, they didn't know what to do. In fact, they've been told there is nothing they can do and are past the deadline to file an appeal. Even if they filed an appeal, they would have to make the $1000 higher payment during the years his appeal could take.

How are CAPS going to help this guy? The answer is the CAPS aren't helping him and no one seems to care that he's likely not going to be able to keep his home.

David Price can't afford a $1000 a month increase! Could you?

Couple of typos above: He has a 30-year fixed mortgage at 6.25% and his assessment drastically increased post-2007 from $176k to $230k. (sorry!)

One of my co-workers (David Price) came to me today to explain his situation from a modest home they bought in 2007. He purchased the $176,000 house with a fixed rate mortgage at 6.25%. His 30 payment was $1217.

His assessment drastically increased post-2077 from $176,000 to $230,000.

Because of his increased assessment (after the housing meltdown) his new mortgage payment is now a whopping $2250 a month!

David heard about my involvement on this front and came to me for help. Unfortunately, there are 20,000 appeals ahead of his, and being new homeowners, they didn't know what to do. In fact, they've been told there is nothing they can do and are past the deadline to file an appeal. Even if they filed an appeal, they would have to make the $1000 higher payment during the years his appeal could take.

How are CAPS going to help this guy? The answer is the CAPS aren't helping him and no one seems to care that he's likely not going to be able to keep his home.

David Price can't afford a $1000 a month increase! Could you?

Couple of typos above: He has a 30-year fixed mortgage at 6.25% and his assessment drastically increased post-2007 from $176k to $230k. (sorry!)

This has worked out real well in California. Schools have been shut down, massive layoffs, etc. Get ready Indiana schools, and teachers and students – Mitch and friends are coming for you.