Did Carson Get It Right?
Indiana’s 7th District Congressman Andre Carson has come under fire for voting against an amendment that would deny funding to ACORN, the controversial community action group.
Congress voted to deny funding to ACORN after an investigation showed ACORN workers giving tax advice to undercover conservative activists posing as a pimp and prostitute.
I am no big fan of ACORN and Carson and I have our philosophical differences, but he may be right on this one, even if for the wrong reason. A valid argument can be made that when the House voted to deny ACORN funding it was passing what’s called a “bill of attainder.”
A bill of attainder is legislation that specifically targets a group or individual to be punished without a trial. Such legislation is unconstitutional under Article 1, Sections 9 and 10. The House bill expressly prohibits any federal funds or contract going to ACORN. Thus, the potential for unconstitutionality.
Now the flip-side of that argument is that there is no right to federal funding and therefore ACORN is not being punished.
Of course all this could have been avoided had Congress simply passed the legislation without mentioning ACORN’s name and this wouldn’t be an issue. But these are also the same people who essentially tried to do the same thing in the Terry Schiavo case a few years back, so why would I think they would have learned anything since then.
September 21st, 2009 at 5:43 am
You may be right, Abdul. The Attainder status is questionable, at the very leas,t regardless whose ox is being gored.
But the far right is taking such overwhelming glee at this particular Attainder, Congress may be forced to allow it to stand. It's payback, because the neocons believe ACORN actually made a difference vis-a-vis voter reg last year. Thus, ACORN gave us Obama.
The nonsense displayed on the videotape (re: ACORN) has to be stopped. I'm just waiting on the same kind of glee/outrage over Sen. Baucus's whoring for health insurance companies for the last decade. Or Sen. Grassley's idiocy. Or former Sen. Frist's incompetent and self-serving advocacy of hospitals while he led the Senate.
Selective indignation sometimes produces temporary relief for the gleeful. It is lousy public policy.
September 21st, 2009 at 7:37 am
Not a single Black Republican voted for that anti-ACORN bill !
September 21st, 2009 at 8:34 am
Nit pik all you want guys, but this partisan corrupt organization needs to be defunded of taxpayers money, prosecuted and its act cleaned up and Carson was wrong, or it will just appear as another name elsewhere with business as usual.
“Kettenring confirmed that Wade Rathke's brother, Dale Rathke, stole around $948,000 from the organization in 1999 and 2000, and that Wade Rathke became aware of it in 2000 but told only a few people. It wasn't reported to law enforcement authorities.”
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/...
September 21st, 2009 at 8:35 am
Where's the glee club for any “organization” that consumes & abuses citizens' earnings?
September 21st, 2009 at 9:10 am
Carsons never gotten it right…every vote by Carson has been as instructed by the democrat DC hacks in power.
September 21st, 2009 at 9:44 am
pssst Ernie: Indianapolis voters like the way Congressman Carson votes — that's why he was re-elected with over 65% of the vote!
September 21st, 2009 at 10:19 am
Streetfighter, it's not nitpiking at all. You might want to read up more before you type. The Constitution is a document that is basically built upon the concept that we need to protect the rights of the least among us, so we can all enjoy them. George W. Bush notwithstanding. If in doubt, read Madison's papers on the Constitution. Very enlightening stuff.
ACORN has, for a long time, been delivering low-cost home weatherization and other vitla services, to some of America's most-poor urban neighborhoods.
They got into the voter registration parade for reasons I don't understand. They should've stayed away from it.
Attainders are not Constitutional. It's pretty simple, Streetfighter–what do you not understand about it? Bills which single-out one group for retribution are not allowed. Period.
Or else…the group that's getting gored today, could be your favorite group tomorrow.
I'm not with Carson on all his votes, either. But sometimes it takes courage to stand against the tide. The principle is pretty sound, even if the group's actions are shady.
If the government thinks there are fraudulent acts, the civil and criminal courts are appropriate avenues to recover allegedly misused funds. And if appropriate, prosecute skalawags. Bills in Congress–not the way to go.
Those pesky Constitutional details. I know it gets in your way sometimes.
September 21st, 2009 at 10:25 am
I'm just glad that somebody, anybody, decided to do some investigative reporting. That used to be one of the real assets to an antique called “journalism”. This journalism used to be a feature in those thin, pressed-wood thingies, covered with words, all rolled-up that they used to deliver to where you lived…..newpapers! That's it.
.
I'd dearly love similar exposes on health insurance companies, hospitals, closed-door Congressional committees……Until then, my selective indigation is pretty limited to what's pursued, and the pickings are slim.
September 21st, 2009 at 10:30 am
I think the bill of attainder position is questionable at the least. Congress defunds things all the time. If you were talking a leglsiative fine that would be one thing. Taking away their funding is quite another.
This argument is virtually identifical to the one when Congress passed a law saying the NEA cannot use public funds to subsidize obscene art and then those artists producing the obscene art contend their First Amendment Free Speech rights are violated because of the defunding. The Constitution does not require that those artists be funded no more than it requires that ACORN be funded.
September 21st, 2009 at 10:48 am
Type your comment here.
Abdul – you answered your own question. Since no organization has a right to federal funds – taking those funds away is not a “punishment”. It is merely Congress exercising its budget authority.
September 21st, 2009 at 11:07 am
Dobie, I would agree. I think it does end up having the same effect, but that's life. Once you start taking federal funds, they have your balls in a wringer.
September 21st, 2009 at 11:13 am
pssst Wilson: not every Indianapolis voter likes the way Congressman Carson votes not those who are informed.
Wilson I'm going to have some signs made for Andre…Vote for Andre Carson and support the man who supports PROSTITUTION.
September 21st, 2009 at 11:19 am
Truth and honesty have never been your strong points — blind partisan attack is more your style.
September 21st, 2009 at 11:29 am
VOTE
ANDRE CARSON
for CONGRESS
support the man who stood up to Congress
CARSON SUPPORTS PROSTITUTION AMERICA NEEDS HIM.
September 21st, 2009 at 11:32 am
IndyErnie has such needs !
September 21st, 2009 at 11:38 am
partisan maybe but not blind…if anyone is blind it is you Wilson. You are deaf, dumb and blind when it comes to anyone named Carson. Why you would attach yourself to Andre is baffling.
Andre Carson is the least qualified congressional candidate to EVER come out of Indiana.
September 21st, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Quote from Think Again::”You might want to read up more before you type. The Constitution is a document that is basically built upon the concept that we need to protect the rights of the least among us, so we can all enjoy them. George W. Bush notwithstanding. “
Think again: Gee thanks for the lesson, you just couldn't resist. Yeah, like this organization and and the government that lets it get away with it, follows the constitution concerning taxpayers. Acorn: big ideals, as you say, supporting the least among us, but that does not justify the crooks feeding off the taxpayers regardless of the ruse of good intentions. So don't twist the argument, that taxpayers don't support the least among, which they do in many ways without this organization which is tied to politics and corruption using the poor to do it. Last but not least, it quite possible that they passed a bill of attainer knowing full well it was unconstitutional.(hmm House? Majority Democrats? Acorn supporters and benefactors? Hmmm) Those little ommissions seems to be what is done to keep it all going.I shall await the indictments against all the connected ones.
September 21st, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Streetfighter, you actually wandered into a legitimate point, albeit via a foggy route.
Democrats control both houses. If they let this issue come forth, clearly the leadership wanted to slap Acorn around.
Indictments are matters for federal prosecutors. You know that group–the ones Cheney-Bush-Rove et al tried to subvert and/or populate with limp-degreed LINO (lawyers in name only).
September 21st, 2009 at 1:21 pm
This CEO is defending a questionable “enterprise,” funded with dollars confiscated from private citizens:
/www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=9822434&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/
September 21st, 2009 at 1:27 pm
If the above link doesn't work, check out ACORN's Bertha Lewis on FNS (Fox News Sunday) broadcast.
September 21st, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Google your fingers off Wilson Allen there is more than one indyernie and you know it. The indyernie that are referring to has his photo posted. Wilson you know who I am and you know he is not me but nice try.
I'm not the one who posted the details of your trespass from the Eastgate Mall men’s room on Indy Undercover Wilson I just read them. Again nice try.
September 21st, 2009 at 1:42 pm
IndyErnie lies. Bigtime.
September 21st, 2009 at 3:02 pm
OK, sketchy comments deleted, let's carry on boys.
September 21st, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Boring.
September 21st, 2009 at 3:31 pm
If I did Carson supports the act.
September 21st, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Our vituous President has very strong ties to the corrupt organization ACORN, yet claimed this past weekend that he wasn't aware the group has received significant federal funding.
…and Carson's too ignorant to know what a Bill of Attainder is. It's a white vs black thing for Andre, not a wrong vs right thing.
And I agree with Paul. If funds were given to ACORN for which they were not eligible, withdrawing the funds cannot be considered punishment.
September 21st, 2009 at 5:36 pm
According to hostile Rep. Darrel Issa (R-Calif) ACORN has received $54 million total in Federal funds since 1994. That's just about $3.5 million a year on the average. That's barely chump change compared to the usual massive Federal expenditures.
September 21st, 2009 at 6:01 pm
ACORN, and some groups with close ties to ACORN, are eligible for $5.2 billion of Stimulus money. Are you honestly saying that Barry had no knowledge of that?
And as far as I'm concerned, $54 million is way too much for a partisan criminal enterprise like ACORN. They don't deserve one dime of taxpayer money.
September 21st, 2009 at 6:08 pm
With a hugumongous Federal budget in the TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS, some folk obsess over $3.5million “petty cash”. Way to go in distracting the discussion from real, massive expenditures. ACORN is a “bright, shiny object” that easily has some folk sidetracked.
September 21st, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Rico, once more, our president is not “Barry.” Your continued lack of respect speaks volumes about you.
I had no idea the ACORN figure was $54 million. That's a lot of money, and it deserves tough scrutiny.
September 21st, 2009 at 6:28 pm
$54 million TOTAL over FIFTEEN years.
September 21st, 2009 at 6:45 pm
TA,
Well, you never told me how you felt about President ACORN? I'd be happy to call him that.
And what it says about me is that I'm a good judge of character. Once again, it is the office that deserves respect, not the person holding the office. Your president has shown nothing but disrespect to this great nation and its traditions. He hates this country. And he himself said that he should be judged by the company he keeps and by those with whom he surrounds himself. The ACORN connection to the prez is a strong one. But he once again will distance himself and pretend his history with the group is a figment of our imagination. Only the most sycophantic worshippers of President ACORN won't see through that.
September 21st, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Once again, Rico, you show your true colors. I'd remind you that a lot of us–myself included–endured eight years of the raping of the Constitution under Pres. Bush, and I held onto respect for his office enough to call him by his proper title.
Sometimes, it just pays to stand back and allow folks to make complete fools of themselves.
Wilson, the amount of money is substantial regardless of the timeframe. We shouldn't diminish the allegations because of the timeframe. We need to find out more about it, and seek justice. That's what separates us from a lot of the neocons–too many of them want to ignore the law when it's not convenient to their ends.
September 21st, 2009 at 6:58 pm
The 'raping of the Constitution' as you call it (and Obama has continued) resulted it stopping a terrorist plot to kill thousands in the New York subway system this week. Choke on that! I'm sure you believe we violated those terrorists' rights by wiretapping their phones. And that, I submit, demonstrates your true colors.
September 21st, 2009 at 7:05 pm
There you go again, Rico. Please cite specific proof that this week's potential bomb-plot breakup was the result of anything OTHER than this:
The Denver authorities and feds got legitimate FISA and Colorado warrants for the searches. You know, the kind the Constitution demands BPBACSI (Before President Bush and Cheney stole it). So, it DOES work.
Checkmate on that score, pal.
Y'all stole my Constitution for eight years. We won it back, thankfully. The Founders would be pleased.
Now, back to ACORN. I want the allegations investigated, too. I think I've explained that.
September 21st, 2009 at 7:30 pm
If you think that's a checkmate, then I want to play chess with you. And, in contrast to President ACORN, the previous president did what he thought necessary to protect the people of this country. And with very few exceptions, the Patriot Act has withstood judicial scrutiny. Your president disregards the Constitution because it's a 'flawed document' and it stands in the way of furthering his radical, Godless, anti-American agenda. Now, don't you have an American flag to crap on somewhere?
September 21st, 2009 at 8:47 pm
That's funny!
I was sent a photo of Barry Jr's mother sister and adopted father. In the post card type photo at the age of about eleven Obama is introduced as Barry to the receiver.
September 21st, 2009 at 9:53 pm
AIG
….everyone go and review that fiasco and what Congress did without a trial and then report back regarding “bill of attainders”
GAME. SET. MATCH.
September 22nd, 2009 at 5:31 am
Please,
Please show min any legislation where AIG is specifically mention. A bill number would be nice also.
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:59 am
Bravo, Abdul.
Rico,gentle blogger, agian, it's Checkmate to most sensible people: this weekend's Colorado arrests were made after search warrants were properly attained.
That's MY Constitution. But thanks for trying. It so amuses me to watch you flopping about like a fish out of water. So damned predictable, but like a good slapstick comedy, always funny!
September 22nd, 2009 at 11:36 am
I will guarantee you that warrantless wiretapping took place while these terrorists were under surveillance for over a year. President ACORN has kept virtually all of his predecessor's policies in place. I know. I know. Barry good, Bush bad. It's like trying to convince a child that Santa Clause doesn't exist. Despite all facts to the contrary, the child so desperately wants to believe his fantasy to be the truth. It's actually a bit pathetic.
September 22nd, 2009 at 11:41 am
…..and by the way, did you call me Gentle Blogger?? What, are you Miss Manners now? Now, fess up! You're either a woman or a gay male (not that there's anything wrong with that).
September 22nd, 2009 at 3:23 pm
The congressional legislation intended to defund ACORN, passed with broad bipartisan support, is written so broadly that it applies to “any organization” that has been charged with breaking federal or state election laws, lobbying disclosure laws, campaign finance laws or filing fraudulent paperwork with any federal or state agency. It also applies to any of the employees, contractors or other folks affiliated with a group charged with any of those things.
In other words, the bill could plausibly defund the entire military-industrial complex. Whoops.
Rep. Alan Grayson (D-Fla.) picked up on the legislative overreach and asked the Project on Government Oversight (POGO) to sift through its database to find which contractors might be caught in the ACORN net.
Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman both popped up quickly, with 20 fraud cases between them, and the longer list is a Who's Who of weapons manufacturers and defense contractors.
September 22nd, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Defunding our military? Isn't that the typical liberal's dream?
September 22nd, 2009 at 3:54 pm
The law was written by a conservative Republican. Why does the GOP hate the troops? Carson refused to vote for this unpatriotic bill!
September 22nd, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Wilson what did you do cut and paste the Carson talking points sent to you by staff?
September 22nd, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Carson is about as patriotic as Carl Marx and President Barry.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:27 pm
Abdul; no valid argument can be made that denying ACORN funding is a bill of attainder. A bill of attainder is a declaration of crimminality made by the legislature. This is not even close to that. Even our internment of Japanese-Americans in WWII wasn't a bill of attainder and that was a lot closer to one than this. Did you miss that day at SLU or were you still high from the break?
September 23rd, 2009 at 6:39 pm
Abdul is sticking with his half baked theory of a bill of attainder in spite of its lack (woeful lack in my view) of corruption of blood. ACORN has long been a criminal enterprise and our President's long association with it and Rev. Wright should lead honest folk to some conclusions that would be apparent to a 3rd grader. At least former President Carter had some experience as a governor of a state and Ms. Palin had been a Mayor with real responsibilities. Congress is attempting to cover something up with these votes in my view and it is not hard to see whose cya they are cya ing.
September 23rd, 2009 at 11:39 pm
Abdul is sticking with his half baked theory of a bill of attainder in spite of its lack (woeful lack in my view) of corruption of blood. ACORN has long been a criminal enterprise and our President's long association with it and Rev. Wright should lead honest folk to some conclusions that would be apparent to a 3rd grader. At least former President Carter had some experience as a governor of a state and Ms. Palin had been a Mayor with real responsibilities. Congress is attempting to cover something up with these votes in my view and it is not hard to see whose cya they are cya ing.
September 28th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
[...] about when I said Congress’ efforts to deny funding to ACORN for its activities might be unconstitutional because the body could be passing a bill of [...]