Sadly, I think this will pass, because most taxpayers see liquor/cigarette taxes as non-intrusive. That message has been finely-honed over decades. It will be difficult to put that toothpaste back in the tube.

The good part of this proposal is, the regional fix. We Marion County residents are tired of funding projects and infrastructure which clearly benefit the entire doughnut.

Brainard has his own tax and spend problems, but Carmel notwithstanding, a regional taxing posture, for some projects, makes good sense.

One question Abdul, regarding implementation of any regional liquor tax increase: will the legislation be enabling, or mandatory?

If it’s enabling, one or more doughnut counties may not opt in.

I know this is a mechanism question that probably bores most of the posters here, but the process is important.

TA,

I’m not sure at this point which one it would be. All I can tell you is that if I were a donut county elected official, I have absolutely no incentive to get on board with this.

as you point out, why do we need to raise ANY tax, if it’s true what they say about all the influx of cash? It doesn’t make sense. 3.2M visitors and $2.2B ought to generate many times over what this proposed tax increase would generate.

I think the figures that have been put out are false and the whole stadium and convention ‘benefit’ story is a lie. Why, the CIB can’t even keep themselves in the black.

“The point of regional taxation should be that the region helps pay for projects which benefit the region. For example, it would be one thing if half of the one-percent increase went to the CIB and there was regional representation on the board. But allowing every government to keep the tax increase does nothing but put the full burden of the CIB issue on the backs of Marion County eventhough the entire region benefits through the hundreds of millions of dollars raised in sales tax revenue which goes to help pay for programs in other parts of the state.”

The CIB doesn’t benefit an “entire region,” it benefits either the entire state, or just the downtown core. If it benefits the entire site by bringing in sales tax revenue, then all 92 counties in Indiana should be sending in something, not just the “metro area.”

Growing government is generally always wrong and that is because their tendency is to grow expensive and incompetent especially in democracies. Probably no reader of this blog thinks the CIB to have ever been competent but dealing with its lacks remains beyond the ability of those in government (Mayor, City Council) other than to throw money at it. At the certainty of provoking certain posters it will also be seen to be the position of IPS and our government schools in general. That is, an inability to deal with incompetence other than to throw money and lies at the problem. I’ve not seen it mentioned prior but would it not be true that the CIB deficits were PLANNED as a matter of incompetent POLICY to stick the citizens with a fiat accompli? And, that being the case, Abdul,going about repeating the talking points and drumming up support for the cynical bastards of CIB past and present isn’t presenting any kind of solution that people want but only an extension of the policy crafted years ago by those who, for their own reasons, wanted to grow this particular creature.

Our five-foot ten inch tall government weighs 1200 lbs; giving it more tax to eat is a good idea?

This requires approval from all the regional counties, only state legislation that’s targeted regionally, or both? If all the counties are needed, I too don’t see it being unanimous. If the state’s needed, aren’t we still lacking votes as this doesn’t address the Northwest casino issue? Or, any other county can be written-in if they’ll take the political heat for the tax revenue(= casino)? Or, it’s close enough that hospitality dollars will bring in the lacking votes? Trumping the dollars potentially withheld from the alcohol industry? Being a taxpayer and only the theoretical recepient of the labor of our public servants doesn’t tell me how the sausage’s really made.
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With more data than when we started, it’s appearing the money’s “really” there amongst teams, patrons, hospitality, and downtown business. With a city our size, are we willing to remain in a “build the new facility loop”, quasi-blackmailed, or possibly lose some teams and downtown business for awhile? It looks great to be “big”, but I think we want teams, business, contracts, and especially spending that fits our size.
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Having lived in towns from 250 to 2 million, I like our size.

Pascal, I don’t necessarily disagree with you. But, a hybrid solution is probably best here. And a new tax seems almost required, at least for the short-term.

If there is to be a new tax–stick with me here–a regional tax makes sense. Yes, the Convention Center benefits all, in varying degrees, likely in this order: region, city, state. Others might flip region and city, but you get the point.

And if we are to get a new tax, I’d want a sunset provision. These taxes cannot go on ad infinitum once their original mission is fulfilled.

And it only works if all doughnut counties are included.

We can tackle schools another day, Pascal. The CIB fix is on the table now. It deserves an honest try, and I’m no Ballard fan, but I think he’s genuinely trying for the first time.

Here we go again: selective discrimination by targeting an industry for additional tax increases. There is nothing uniform and fair about this. Secondly, the idea of expanding it to donut counties for the purpose of not seeing residents travel outside the county to stock-up on booze, is punitive and selfish. The reward for the donut counties to keep the tax proceeds to be spent as they wish is simply a carrot, in effect a bribe to pacify the plan. Thirdly, the idea of having to bail out the CIB’s shortfall to run the sports facilities makes it appear the city is dependent on booze money. Is this how we wish to run our city..at the mercy of booze guzzlers?

Thinkagain -

While I like your idea of having any tax increase, if one turns out to be necessary, be short-lived, it has been my experience that there is no such thing. Sunset provisions can be gotten around. Keep in mind that we are still paying 1% for the demolished Hoosier Dome. According to the books, that building has never been paid off since the debt kept being rolled into new bonds that was used to pay for other things.

There are few things in life that last longer than a temporary tax.

if you’re suggesting that the whole state should pay for the CIB shortfall, rather than just people in Marion and surrounding counties, then I wholly disagree with you.

Dobie, I was actually around when the Dome tax was passed. There was nothing in that authorizing legislation that said it should END when the Dome was paid off.

The legislation just said the tax was to pay for the Dome.

There is a way to end it. Cleanly and clearly.

Indianapolis suffers from “Little Brother Syndrome,” an irrational compulsion stemming from a deficient self-image (insecurity?), to be like somewhere else (i.e. Chicago, etc.), rather than simply be & appreciate what this city IS. “Representatives” fiddle those emotions / irrationality to run an age old scam, that new & bigger means “better.” See anything like that, “puttin’ on the dog,” in other places like Carmel? Some day, folks here will hopefully discover that it’s OK to be, and so, be who you are.

I recommend that the people demand a 50% tax on stupid, idiotic, unintelligent, short-sighted, ignorant, and selfish government officials. All of our budget problems would be solved in an instant.

Talk about a tax that will never go away!

Shorebreak,

The tax you suggest should also include a 10% surtax on all government employees. There’s another group that is laregely overcompensated for doing their jobs badly. I think we should pay crappy rates for crappy service. I’d also propose that we rename public service to reflect what it has actually become, which is publicly financed selfservice.

Think Again,

Actually I think there was a decision to extend the first F&B tax beyond when it was originally set to expire. Nonetheless, you’re not going to get me to go down that “temporary tax” road again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
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Juno, why do you want to all government employees an extra 10%. Some of them over at the City County Building make about $15,000 a year and qualify for food stamps. How are all government employees doing a bad job? There are good people in public service. Don’t penalize them because of the bad apples.

Dave,

I totally agree with your observation. I thought I was the only one to observe that Indy suffers from an inferiority complex.
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You ask people how big Indy is compared to the size of other U.S. cities and many people wouldn’t even guess Indy is in the top 100. Most are shocked to find out Indy is the 13th biggest city in the U.S.

There’s no inferiority complex here. There could be an identity complex–but that’s not the same.

I know two state government employees who make less than $30,000 a year after more than 15 years of service. And each is college-educated. They are child advocates at DCFS. Neither ever complains about their salary, and each loves their work. I think they’re worth twice what they’re paid. When Mitch became governor, his henchmen cut their ranks by a bunch. Only recently has their number grown to a decent level, while their caseload had doubled.

Quick, cheap, sound-bite answers won’t solve this problem.

And Paul, I’m not trying to “fool” you. I am simply saying that legislation can be written that puts a final date on a tax’s collection. It’s not rocket science. I do recall that some action, of either the Council or legislature, extended the original Dome tax.

Ahhh….the Dome…a building that served us well, was ultimately debt-free, and is now landfill. I’m just wondering when Lucas will be obsolete by NFL or Irsay standards.

Kinda like the never-ending battle between the life of the car and the life of the payment book. Which is why I try to pay cash for cars. And which is why I drive 5-10 year old cars, comfortably.

Paul,

Like a lot of taxpayers, I’m frustrated and see no way out of the mess we’re in. I agree that many in the public sector are underpaid, some grossly. They also happen to be the ones working their butts off. But there is a huge disparity between what those at the bottom make versus those at the top who do the most damage to taxpayers. Maybe we should limit the surtax to those making $70K or more. I know people in government who are making much more than that who do nothing more than warm a chair. There are many more than you think. These people laugh all the way to the bank, which they visit during office hours to have something to do.

Neither Daniels nor Ballard has done anything about it that I can see. Quite the contrary. Telling us that these people will leave government employment if we don’t pay even more is a cop out. The CIB raises are perfect examples of preserving the status quo, embarrassing explanations as to why we need to continue the stupidity, and a governmental CEO just plain not doing his job. That agency should have been cut to the bone and the management team laughed out of the room when those raises were proposed. Performance, past and present, dictated cuts, not raises.

I am not aware of any agency, much less the entire governmental unit, ever having performed an audit to determine if there are an excess number of employees in some agencies, people performing jobs we simply don’t need done, or people being over-compensated for their positions. That’s why CA has prison guards making $100K per year. They never examined how much they were spending or on what either. Now they are bankrupt.

Since we are unwilling to control governmental spending the smart way by intelligently allocating resources and paying as few people as possible what they are truly worth, we always elect to control spending the dumb way (across-the-board cuts). Or we do it the even dumber way by eliminating or cutting more essential workers while leaving all their superiors in place. People tire of 50 kids per classroom and demand teacher restoration. The spending spree continues unabated because the admininstrative layer NEVER gets cut. Think Again rightfully points out DCFS as a good example of this approach by the state.

Starving the pigs at the trough may not be ideal, but it’s a start, especially when the governmental barnyard is quickly turning into one of the best gigs in town. I’d like to know your own ideas on controlly spending. You are a smart and thoughtful person. I’d happily support you at the helm, local or state.

Paul,

Even if you put a sunset provision into the tax increase statute, you can easily repeal that provision. My experience is that when a government or quasigovernment entity comes to expect a revenue stream it’s all over, they’ll never settle for anything less.

I think everyone needs to key in on the term”floating” that Abdul used-as in”the mayor’s office is floating the idea of a regional alcohol tax”. He can float all he wants, but i haven’t heard any Democrats or Republicans plugged in to any news stories saying they’ll support it.
Great opportunity to vent, but I think the speculation and resulting hysteria is all for naught.

FYI, Think Again, I didn’t mean to imply YOU were trying to fool me. The comment was a reference to our city leaders who last time assured us the 1% FB Tax would temporary and it wasn’t. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

It’s OK Paul. I hoped as much.

Buer raises a good point. I hear no legislators tagging onto Ballard’s plan. And that is significant.

I know 31 Republican senators who were too busy writing a letter to Sens. Lugar and Bayh opposing Dawn Johnson’s nomination at Justice. Which is perfect, considering they couldn’t do their statutory job in time, they’ve got all this time to write letters about something which concerns them not one whit.

Maybe all 150 of them are embarrassed and lying low for the Special. They sure as hell should be embarrassed.

Think Again,
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Did you really want a budget prodcued on time when numbers released a few days after session showed a dramatic drop in revenue which would not have been revealed in the budget.
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I think I’m the only one who doesn’t get all bent out of shape if we go to special session. I’d much rather have the State pay a few thousand for a special session than to make a collassel mistake with the budget that cost taxpayers tens of millions of dollars.
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I have no problem with elected state senators expressing concern about a nominee’s views on abortion. I’d much rather have that than a certain Republican U.S. Senator who will vote to confirm ANYONE regardless of their problems For example see Jocelyn Elders who Lugar voted for. When Elders worked as the Arksansas state medical director she refused to recall condoms the state had issued that had holes in them. Didn’t want to undermine the credibility of the state’s condom program.
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Sorry…got off track there. The Elders nomination came to mind for some reason.

“The logic in all this is that by increasing the tax region wide no one will run across county lines to buy more booze. This is a bad idea.”
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Yes, Abdul…bad idea. I thought the purpose of ‘wise’ taxation was to support the LEGITIMATE cost of government…which is protecting our rights, etc. Here, we see taxation as a means of social engineering. Is this ‘legit’?
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“And maybe people aren’t reading the news, but voters in two area school districts just voted down tax increases to build new schools and Californians also via referendum voted down a number of options that would raise taxes to solve their budget problems.”
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Uh, Abdul….we do NOT have the POWER of the referendum in this matter. Sure, the GA (the Servants) ‘gave’ it to us (the Masters), and then patted themselves on the back. How do you think the referendum vote would have gone for the new Colt’s stadium? It’s no secret…government already told us that We the People would have voted NO…which is why we were not permitted to vote on the nearly $1B boondoggle.
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I know you are on record as not caring much for the referendum…but it certainly has its uses.
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“And a new tax seems almost required, at least for the short-term.” — TA @ 9
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TA, what is a ’short-term’ tax? Is this a tax that is lifted from the backs of the taxpayers after a ’short-time’?
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I had some ’short-time’ while I was overseas in the Marines. The end result of both ’short-times’ were the same. I was frakked.

Pascal -With reference to “planned” problems, I suggest you read the Feb. 8, 2009, post at Indy Tax Dollars.
Paul Ogden – With reference to inferiority complex, please read the Jan. 2, 2007, post at Indy Tax Dollars

The same advisor that told the mayor to give each taxpayer $12 back in Public Safety COIT must have dreamed up this idea. Now public safety agencies are struggling.

Are they really, Reba? Please elaborate.

The last tax increase proposal was for Marion County had the potential to destroy an estimated 300 jobs in the county’s hospitality industry and cause retail sales to decline by nearly $17 million. The hospitality industry has been hit hard enough already by this recession and increased taxes on alcohol just add insult to injury.

Let your representatives know that any additional beverage alcohol tax increase proposals are a bad idea by visiting http://www.axetaxesnotjobs.com.