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	<title>Comments on: For Whom the Bell Curves</title>
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		<title>By: guest</title>
		<link>http://www.indianabarrister.com/archives/2009/10/for_whom_the_bell_curves.html/comment-page-1#comment-30371</link>
		<dc:creator>guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In case folks have forgotton,  Charles Murray produced a controversial book called &quot;The Bell Curve&quot;.  The point of the book according to Murray connected IQ and race (blacks have a lower IQ than whites) which by the way has/have been proved WRONG by a number of academics and academic research and just plain common sense.  I have not read Murrays latest book, but Murrays &quot;Bell&quot; book relied on gross (and dangerous) generalizations and reckless stastically methodology.  I would be very relucatant to support Murrays work. And the governor should have as well. Oh and by the way, I hope my comments/opinions/facts will not be edited,deleted or censored by Abdul.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In case folks have forgotton,  Charles Murray produced a controversial book called &#8220;The Bell Curve&#8221;.  The point of the book according to Murray connected IQ and race (blacks have a lower IQ than whites) which by the way has/have been proved WRONG by a number of academics and academic research and just plain common sense.  I have not read Murrays latest book, but Murrays &#8220;Bell&#8221; book relied on gross (and dangerous) generalizations and reckless stastically methodology.  I would be very relucatant to support Murrays work. And the governor should have as well. Oh and by the way, I hope my comments/opinions/facts will not be edited,deleted or censored by Abdul.</p>
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		<title>By: guest</title>
		<link>http://www.indianabarrister.com/archives/2009/10/for_whom_the_bell_curves.html/comment-page-1#comment-28061</link>
		<dc:creator>guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.indianabarrister.com/?p=2871#comment-28061</guid>
		<description>In case folks have forgotton,  Charles Murray produced a controversial book called &quot;The Bell Curve&quot;.  The point of the book according to Murray connected IQ and race (blacks have a lower IQ than whites) which by the way has/have been proved WRONG by a number of academics and academic research and just plain common sense.  I have not read Murrays latest book, but Murrays &quot;Bell&quot; book relied on gross (and dangerous) generalizations and reckless stastically methodology.  I would be very relucatant to support Murrays work. And the governor should have as well. Oh and by the way, I hope my comments/opinions/facts will not be edited,deleted or censored by Abdul.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In case folks have forgotton,  Charles Murray produced a controversial book called &#8220;The Bell Curve&#8221;.  The point of the book according to Murray connected IQ and race (blacks have a lower IQ than whites) which by the way has/have been proved WRONG by a number of academics and academic research and just plain common sense.  I have not read Murrays latest book, but Murrays &#8220;Bell&#8221; book relied on gross (and dangerous) generalizations and reckless stastically methodology.  I would be very relucatant to support Murrays work. And the governor should have as well. Oh and by the way, I hope my comments/opinions/facts will not be edited,deleted or censored by Abdul.</p>
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		<title>By: pascal</title>
		<link>http://www.indianabarrister.com/archives/2009/10/for_whom_the_bell_curves.html/comment-page-1#comment-28002</link>
		<dc:creator>pascal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.indianabarrister.com/?p=2871#comment-28002</guid>
		<description>On the off chance that folks might want to climb out of their particular sand box, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/&lt;/a&gt; is of interest because the same problems they have in England were exported here and we have them.  For the same reasons.  Try this lady&#039;s thinking out and see if there isn&#039;t a mirror there.  Incidently, that the future depends on the gifted was orginally the observation of Al Shanker, Union leader of the AFT, I think. Geez, and that half of children or nearly anything is below average is a basic truism of math, uh, math itself would be the meaningful measure. It points to the reality that abilities differ and a policy to fit all isn&#039;t going to work. But, if you don&#039;t read the book you won&#039;t see some light for IPS</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the off chance that folks might want to climb out of their particular sand box, <a href="http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/" rel="nofollow">http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/</a> is of interest because the same problems they have in England were exported here and we have them.  For the same reasons.  Try this lady&#39;s thinking out and see if there isn&#39;t a mirror there.  Incidently, that the future depends on the gifted was orginally the observation of Al Shanker, Union leader of the AFT, I think. Geez, and that half of children or nearly anything is below average is a basic truism of math, uh, math itself would be the meaningful measure. It points to the reality that abilities differ and a policy to fit all isn&#39;t going to work. But, if you don&#39;t read the book you won&#39;t see some light for IPS</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.indianabarrister.com/archives/2009/10/for_whom_the_bell_curves.html/comment-page-1#comment-27973</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 02:44:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.indianabarrister.com/?p=2871#comment-27973</guid>
		<description>Man, that&#039;s too cynical.  We&#039;re all wired differently &amp; ideas about &quot;success&quot; are unique to each person.  Regardless of &quot;intent,&quot; all testing is inherently, developer biased.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;For all the educational shingling of those we call elected &quot;leaders,&quot; the compulsion to pack pounds on a morbidly proportioned &amp; now illegitimate bureaucracy, is at extreme odds with the pretense of their &quot;pedigree.&quot;  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Education is a parental responsibility which becomes individual responsibility; the concern but not the responsibility of government.  Government threatens the cellular importance of individuals &amp; families in favor of a destructive &quot;nanny state.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;1)  &quot;Children have different abilities.&quot;  Thank God &amp; may they / we make the most of them.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;2)  &quot;Half of all children are below average.&quot;  By what meaningful measure?  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;3)  &quot;Too many children go to college.&quot;  If so, what does that say about &quot;education?&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;4)  &quot;America’s future depends on the gifted.&quot;  Ordained by who?  No!  America&#039;s future depends on vigilance, and appreciation, for the gift of liberty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Man, that&#39;s too cynical.  We&#39;re all wired differently &#038; ideas about &#8220;success&#8221; are unique to each person.  Regardless of &#8220;intent,&#8221; all testing is inherently, developer biased.</p>
<p>For all the educational shingling of those we call elected &#8220;leaders,&#8221; the compulsion to pack pounds on a morbidly proportioned &#038; now illegitimate bureaucracy, is at extreme odds with the pretense of their &#8220;pedigree.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Education is a parental responsibility which becomes individual responsibility; the concern but not the responsibility of government.  Government threatens the cellular importance of individuals &#038; families in favor of a destructive &#8220;nanny state.&#8221;</p>
<p>1)  &#8220;Children have different abilities.&#8221;  Thank God &#038; may they / we make the most of them.</p>
<p>2)  &#8220;Half of all children are below average.&#8221;  By what meaningful measure?  </p>
<p>3)  &#8220;Too many children go to college.&#8221;  If so, what does that say about &#8220;education?&#8221;</p>
<p>4)  &#8220;America’s future depends on the gifted.&#8221;  Ordained by who?  No!  America&#39;s future depends on vigilance, and appreciation, for the gift of liberty.</p>
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		<title>By: pascal</title>
		<link>http://www.indianabarrister.com/archives/2009/10/for_whom_the_bell_curves.html/comment-page-1#comment-27952</link>
		<dc:creator>pascal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:03:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.indianabarrister.com/?p=2871#comment-27952</guid>
		<description>Of course, in a dust cover reading world or where posters gain all of their knowledge from a book review on Amazon it is a good thing to make a specific recommendation.  Mitch did that.  If you have ever attended a round table meeting you won&#039;t be impressed with the level of knowledge, discourse, or dia logos.  So, for the dust cover posters trapped in their own limited experiences we offer the last dust cover quote, &quot;Know the truth and the truth shall make you free: said a well known educator......Tell the truth, and the truth shall make you free of foolish, druel, and counterproductive educational policies&quot;.  That would be P. J. O&#039;Rourke who might have added that the policies were composed by fools, idiots, dolts, hangers on, and compromised people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, in a dust cover reading world or where posters gain all of their knowledge from a book review on Amazon it is a good thing to make a specific recommendation.  Mitch did that.  If you have ever attended a round table meeting you won&#39;t be impressed with the level of knowledge, discourse, or dia logos.  So, for the dust cover posters trapped in their own limited experiences we offer the last dust cover quote, &#8220;Know the truth and the truth shall make you free: said a well known educator&#8230;&#8230;Tell the truth, and the truth shall make you free of foolish, druel, and counterproductive educational policies&#8221;.  That would be P. J. O&#39;Rourke who might have added that the policies were composed by fools, idiots, dolts, hangers on, and compromised people.</p>
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		<title>By: shorebreak</title>
		<link>http://www.indianabarrister.com/archives/2009/10/for_whom_the_bell_curves.html/comment-page-1#comment-27925</link>
		<dc:creator>shorebreak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:20:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.indianabarrister.com/?p=2871#comment-27925</guid>
		<description>Most of you who have read my posts already know that I&#039;m a square peg in a world of round holes. :)  I&#039;ll frame my comments on the book with a little bit of a personal bio. You&#039;ll understand why when you get to my comments.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Based on my own experiences in schools a couple of decades ago (full disclosure - most were private schools), I was the kid who teachers could never figure out. I would go to class and do nothing, do no homework, but do well on tests. My teachers would occasionally ask &quot;what&#039;s wrong with you?&quot; etc but I had no clue other than the fact that I was utterly bored in class but too polite to tell them. My parents were both very successful but neither could figure me out because they had always studied hard etc so they thought I was very smart, but lazy.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I had read an entire encyclopedia set before I was 13 so I already knew more than was included in most of my curriculums. Instead of spending time at school learning, I spent my time waiting for classes to end - and trying to read without getting caught.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;At the beginning of 11th grade we had 3 days of national apptitude testing that was scored from &quot;0&quot; to &quot;99&quot;. A score of &quot;0&quot; meant you were ahead of 0% of the other students and a &quot;99&quot; meant you were ahead of 99% of other students. I scored a 99 at all levels despite having barely passed 10th grade. Within a week of getting test results I found myself placed in all AP classes. For the first 2/3&#039;s of that year I aced all of my tests and I did great. The change was good for me, but it wasn&#039;t formed correctly. Looking back I can say that I aced everything only to prove that AP classes weren&#039;t a challenge either. I did so poorly in the last 3rd of the year that I only advanced to 12th grade because of my earlier performance.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;That year I also scored 1470 on my PSAT. Mail started arriving and I was invited to attend pre-enrollment weekends at dozens of colleges including Princeton, Yale, Duke, Columbia, Georgetown, and other prestigious schools. I didn&#039;t visit any of them because I knew that my grades didn&#039;t complement the incomplete picture presented by my test scores. After a dissapointing end to my junior year I was placed back in regular classes. I graduated by the skin of my teeth, with most of my attention focused on the beach and partying.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Since leaving the education &quot;box&quot;, I&#039;ve travelled the world representing global corporations, I&#039;ve had the opportunity to be head of R&amp;D for a multi-billion dollar global manufacturer, I&#039;ve consulted to NASA on space suits, Pfizer on manufacturing processes, and Ralph Lauren on fabric structures. I&#039;m currently building out an engineering firm and have developed a need for at least 20 new full time engineers in the next 10 weeks, and I&#039;m looking forward to much more in the future. I might even pursue a degree when my kids are older and I have spare time.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;With that in mind, here are my comments on the four major themes of the book:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;Children have different abilities.&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This is true. No arguments.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;Half of all children are below average.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Average what? I spent most of my education at the bottom of the grading curve, but I knew more than most of the kids with the highest grades. How do you define average? To me, that statement is a box that prevents kids from understing how to use their wings. It&#039;s also an excuse that allows educators to apply a label to a struggling kid rather than trying to understand what the kid needs. In my case, for example, I probably would have excelled if I was simply given a series of difficult problems to solve (or things to build/create), where the solution (or phased set of solutions) required absorpbtion of required curriculum material. There is no such thing as average when it comes to kids - it&#039;s a false measurement. &lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;&quot;Too many children go to college.&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If this is true, then too many jobs require a college education. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;America’s future depends on the gifted.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I agree. I also believe that we all have gifts to offer. Our future depends upon all of us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of you who have read my posts already know that I&#39;m a square peg in a world of round holes. :)  I&#39;ll frame my comments on the book with a little bit of a personal bio. You&#39;ll understand why when you get to my comments.</p>
<p>Based on my own experiences in schools a couple of decades ago (full disclosure &#8211; most were private schools), I was the kid who teachers could never figure out. I would go to class and do nothing, do no homework, but do well on tests. My teachers would occasionally ask &#8220;what&#39;s wrong with you?&#8221; etc but I had no clue other than the fact that I was utterly bored in class but too polite to tell them. My parents were both very successful but neither could figure me out because they had always studied hard etc so they thought I was very smart, but lazy.</p>
<p>I had read an entire encyclopedia set before I was 13 so I already knew more than was included in most of my curriculums. Instead of spending time at school learning, I spent my time waiting for classes to end &#8211; and trying to read without getting caught.</p>
<p>At the beginning of 11th grade we had 3 days of national apptitude testing that was scored from &#8220;0&#8243; to &#8220;99&#8243;. A score of &#8220;0&#8243; meant you were ahead of 0% of the other students and a &#8220;99&#8243; meant you were ahead of 99% of other students. I scored a 99 at all levels despite having barely passed 10th grade. Within a week of getting test results I found myself placed in all AP classes. For the first 2/3&#39;s of that year I aced all of my tests and I did great. The change was good for me, but it wasn&#39;t formed correctly. Looking back I can say that I aced everything only to prove that AP classes weren&#39;t a challenge either. I did so poorly in the last 3rd of the year that I only advanced to 12th grade because of my earlier performance.</p>
<p>That year I also scored 1470 on my PSAT. Mail started arriving and I was invited to attend pre-enrollment weekends at dozens of colleges including Princeton, Yale, Duke, Columbia, Georgetown, and other prestigious schools. I didn&#39;t visit any of them because I knew that my grades didn&#39;t complement the incomplete picture presented by my test scores. After a dissapointing end to my junior year I was placed back in regular classes. I graduated by the skin of my teeth, with most of my attention focused on the beach and partying.</p>
<p>Since leaving the education &#8220;box&#8221;, I&#39;ve travelled the world representing global corporations, I&#39;ve had the opportunity to be head of R&#038;D for a multi-billion dollar global manufacturer, I&#39;ve consulted to NASA on space suits, Pfizer on manufacturing processes, and Ralph Lauren on fabric structures. I&#39;m currently building out an engineering firm and have developed a need for at least 20 new full time engineers in the next 10 weeks, and I&#39;m looking forward to much more in the future. I might even pursue a degree when my kids are older and I have spare time.</p>
<p>With that in mind, here are my comments on the four major themes of the book:</p>
<p>&#8220;Children have different abilities.&#8221; </p>
<p>This is true. No arguments.</p>
<p>&#8220;Half of all children are below average.&#8221;</p>
<p>Average what? I spent most of my education at the bottom of the grading curve, but I knew more than most of the kids with the highest grades. How do you define average? To me, that statement is a box that prevents kids from understing how to use their wings. It&#39;s also an excuse that allows educators to apply a label to a struggling kid rather than trying to understand what the kid needs. In my case, for example, I probably would have excelled if I was simply given a series of difficult problems to solve (or things to build/create), where the solution (or phased set of solutions) required absorpbtion of required curriculum material. There is no such thing as average when it comes to kids &#8211; it&#39;s a false measurement. </p>
<p>&#8220;Too many children go to college.&#8221; </p>
<p>If this is true, then too many jobs require a college education. </p>
<p>&#8220;America’s future depends on the gifted.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree. I also believe that we all have gifts to offer. Our future depends upon all of us.</p>
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		<title>By: Rico</title>
		<link>http://www.indianabarrister.com/archives/2009/10/for_whom_the_bell_curves.html/comment-page-1#comment-27921</link>
		<dc:creator>Rico</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:54:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.indianabarrister.com/?p=2871#comment-27921</guid>
		<description>I think it would be extremely interesting. I would bet there&#039;s a strong correlation between the liberals&#039; attempt to destroy the family unit and educational performance among our young.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it would be extremely interesting. I would bet there&#39;s a strong correlation between the liberals&#39; attempt to destroy the family unit and educational performance among our young.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.indianabarrister.com/archives/2009/10/for_whom_the_bell_curves.html/comment-page-1#comment-27920</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:52:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.indianabarrister.com/?p=2871#comment-27920</guid>
		<description>Probably only tangentially relevant, but education starts at home. You need to have parents who value education and have time to impart that value to their children. I don&#039;t know how you instill the former, but as to the latter, you need (I believe) to have a parent who can stay at home with the kids. This would, in turn, require a return to the days when one parent&#039;s income could reasonably support the family. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It would be interesting to compare whether there was a close relationship between the decline of educational performance and the decrease in stay at home parents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Probably only tangentially relevant, but education starts at home. You need to have parents who value education and have time to impart that value to their children. I don&#39;t know how you instill the former, but as to the latter, you need (I believe) to have a parent who can stay at home with the kids. This would, in turn, require a return to the days when one parent&#39;s income could reasonably support the family. </p>
<p>It would be interesting to compare whether there was a close relationship between the decline of educational performance and the decrease in stay at home parents.</p>
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		<title>By: pascal</title>
		<link>http://www.indianabarrister.com/archives/2009/10/for_whom_the_bell_curves.html/comment-page-1#comment-27919</link>
		<dc:creator>pascal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:52:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.indianabarrister.com/?p=2871#comment-27919</guid>
		<description>Why can&#039;t we limit college enrollments?  And, wouldn&#039;t it be better for commentators on the thread to have actually read Murray&#039;s book? It wouldn&#039;t hurt to go on and read The Bell Curve as well and Banfield&#039;s Unheavenly City-at least the chapter on education.  If I understand him correctly, all Mitch is doing is giving a homework assignment suggesting to those folks that they do a little new thinking instead of turf defending.  Mitch is usually right.  Murray is nearly always right even if the sacred cows he wounds were already dead on their hooves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why can&#39;t we limit college enrollments?  And, wouldn&#39;t it be better for commentators on the thread to have actually read Murray&#39;s book? It wouldn&#39;t hurt to go on and read The Bell Curve as well and Banfield&#39;s Unheavenly City-at least the chapter on education.  If I understand him correctly, all Mitch is doing is giving a homework assignment suggesting to those folks that they do a little new thinking instead of turf defending.  Mitch is usually right.  Murray is nearly always right even if the sacred cows he wounds were already dead on their hooves.</p>
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		<title>By: Indiana_Barrister</title>
		<link>http://www.indianabarrister.com/archives/2009/10/for_whom_the_bell_curves.html/comment-page-1#comment-27917</link>
		<dc:creator>Indiana_Barrister</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:37:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.indianabarrister.com/?p=2871#comment-27917</guid>
		<description>Actually I am a product of Chicago Public Schools.  I went to college in Europe.  My younger brothers did the DoDDS education and two of them finished up in Lawrence Township schools.  We all turned out okay, but one of them had a few twists and turns along the way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually I am a product of Chicago Public Schools.  I went to college in Europe.  My younger brothers did the DoDDS education and two of them finished up in Lawrence Township schools.  We all turned out okay, but one of them had a few twists and turns along the way.</p>
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