As I understand it from news reports, some dems were upset because the merger didn’t do enough for minority- and women-owned businesses.
.
What? I thought this was about cost savings in public safety.

What you are saying, is you hope those people who live in the 5 remaining townships receive less than adequate fire coverage?

I do not hope the townships fail; but I hope they start to realize they will collapse without consolidation and the IFD allows them to consolidate even if they are late to the game. It is better for the entire city if we have one consolidated fire department, and not 5 areas with inadequate fire coverage.

When it happens look to Muncie for the solution, that is, right sizing. While it is true your support for consolidation has been consistent I think it is based upon an elementary error. That error is found in the fact that the whole is composed of the sum of its parts. As in sports where you must keep your eye on the ball, in the provision of services you must keep your eye on the cost per unit of service delivered. Consolidation, in itself, does not do this and that is why you and the others fail to find anywhere where consolidation has reduced costs or improved services at the same cost. Your out, that is, “properly done”, falls apart as it should be applied PRIOR to consolidation, thus getting the same standard applied. The Mayor of Muncie is doing just that by right sizing what had, over the years, become bloat.

For those overjoyed that local government revenue will soon be cut—let us look forward about 4 years when there are major cuts in fire departments and police (personnel, equipment, etc. while having to keep all mandated training and other parts in place), roads become worse without any chance of improvement, and all other services people expect of local government. Will not attempt to say there has not been/are not waste in many units but for a whole lot of areas there will be cutbacks that are not wanted nor supported. Consolidation might hold some answers but do not expect the almost miracle level you believe is possible.
The expectations of what government can do for everyone has placed a burden that can not be supported.

Right-sizing works with consolidation.

Waiting for townships to beg to be consolidated is a cynical answer. The trustees need to be divested of their power base because it simply doesn’t work well. It’s not cost-effective, and coverage-wise, well…it’s dwindling base. And it will get worse, as you point out, when the new budget protocols slip into place next year.

I’d agree with your precept, Abdul, if it weren’t public safety. It’s too important to play with. Which i exactly what the trustees have been doing for years, especially Wayne.

Again, as I mentioned in a previous comment to another post, all seven Republicans on the Decatur Township Advisory Board as well as the Trustee and the City-County Councillor in Decatur Township, Bob Cockrum, have been anti-consolidation for years. In 2008, many (not all) of the Democrats that ran were for consolidation. I was one of those individuals that challenged the incumbency, and, while I back consolidation generally, I said that I would vote for consolidation only if it benefitted the township taking what I heard from the firefighters. One way or another, it should be extremely interesting to see what happens now. I’ve heard through a source that should know that the Decatur Township Advisory Board is now at least looking at the issue. Of course, since most people don’t even care or know what the Advisory Board does, whatever they do goes through without much public input (besides the fact that this township board is known for its bare minimum advertising of meetings and scant reporting of what happens in meetings). The Board will likely do whatever the trustee tells it to do. There are good people like Bob Frye, Sandy Filipovich and David Knight on the board, but, if I were a Decatur Twp. voter, I would be watching this issue very closely if I voted based on what the board incumbents said during the campaign. Again, I don’t have a problem with the people on the board; I just want them to be held accountable by the voters for the actions they support.

What about Wayne? I didn’t see it listed are there plans to consolidate it already? I hate that I am being taxed twice already.

A couple of points:
.
We know that property tax caps with no alternative funding mechanism or mitigation strategy can only hurt residents and municipalities, not help them. It would be assinine to assume that economic planners and forecasters in the Daniels camp were unable to see the obvious.
.
When Municipality A loses 50% of it’s budget, and Municipality B loses 50% of it’s budget, the only benefit of a merger would be to municipalities with a lower per capita revenue. In other words, a merger may result in Municipality A having 40% of it’s former revenue, if Municipality B had a significantly lower per capita revenue. Both munipalities are losers, but the one that started out with a higher revenue base becomes the bigger loser.
.
So how does consolidation help? On a financial level, it doesn’t. But if you’re the new boss, it helps significantly. You now have control over many where before you controlled a few.
.
Like Abdul says, the tax cap is nothing more than a tool. It’s designed to be used as leverage to convince people that they need to shed local government and consolidate. It’s a dirty trick and unfortunately, most people won’t see through the smoke screen.

Just think IF smaller local government results in the ultimate consolidation to where everyone looks to the state for answers—the legislature and the governor will run everything-and if you think local government is bad then consider having the governor as administrator of repairs to your local street. Just consider the fine degree of efficiency we would have attained with the high achieving legislature (a model for local government council???) and a high priest (uh governor) responsible for general administration. Sure would beat all those local volunteers who keep trying to do things

Wayne is consolidated. Warren is not. I fixed the typo.

Ok- cool. Property tax caps = evil. Local gov’t = good. How are you going to have local, attentive, responsible, “closer to the people” gov’t that’s is not as corrupt as our upstream levels? Procedural changes? Term limits? Our assembly made it quite clear they love township gov’t in it’s present form. Term limits would infringe on our precious right to keep reelecting bozos that can best tempt our greed.
.
Short of either a literal revolution dismantling upper levels of gov’t or a tsunami of citizen participation, how do you stop the groundswell of bipartisan consolidation “efficiency”, created from lackadaisal voters, overspending, and dysfunctional policy?
.
I’m settling for distasteful consolidation and tax caps because the reality is we don’t enough citizenry that give a rat’s hind-end to police “local” gov’t and get an alternative to property tax off the drawing board. With stripped-down funding, it will darn sure elicit a response, whether violence in the streets, delving into bureaucracies that have evaded efficiency (tax abatements, education and child welfare for three examples), or changing taxation- I don’t know.
.
I hear agreement on the problem. What’s your solution? You really think the income’s out there to raise taxes? Really? Where?

Hey Wayne Resident, you say you don’t like being taxed twice, you don’t know the half of it. A share of your taxes are going to fund Health & Hospital Corporation, which runs Wishard Ambulance. You are also paying for the fire department to provide ambulances. Your COIT helps support IFD and you are paying for your township fire department. Part of the IFD money is going for them to run ambulances in the old merged township areas.So, in reality, you money is going to pay for 2 fire departments and 3 ambulance services. Cha Ching!

“Ok- cool. Property tax caps = evil. Local gov’t = good”
.
Balatantly putting words into someones mouth for all viewers to see = Priceless

I guess I am most concerned with the consistent tone that all government is evil, ineffienct, corrupt, inept, wasteful, etc. and that all citizenity is unconcerned, thoughtless, inept, etc. to decide things for themselves that serve their needs. In a democratic form of government the voting people are the government ultimately —term limits—if people want them then they will occur at the balloting time; if people do not like the way those in power are handling things they can do something about it. The very veiw that the state or federal government has all answers and can always handle things better–guess you could be right as our state and nation are in excellent shape without any desenter around. Yeah, I live in a small town in a small county but I would rather trust my local “volunteers” with all their shortcomings as the august group in the state house. Much of the mess we have locally is result of “actions taken to protect” us from something by those in the state house.

Jack – can you show me where we have a democratic form of government?
.
FYI – Democratic is when 51% of the people can vote to take whatever they want from the other 49%. The day that this country becomes a democracy is the day that you can say goodbye to individual liberty.

oops – correction: Not democratic. I meant to say democracy. But I guess it doesn’t change my point :)

John Howard,
Basically Vern Brown complains about minority quota’s. He has been complaining about the same thing on IFD for 20 some years, but he doesn’t take any action on his own. He just complains.

I apologize if I’m too strident and simplistic. I’m asking Shorebreak or anyone, how we’re to garner sufficient participation to implement and police something fairer than property tax caps and less corrupt than Indiana township gov’t?
.
I believe spending money we don’t have is the downfall. I see the would-be efficiency of consolidation taking longer to get there. I’d love to be wrong.

Abdul, I think I understand I saw you changed the original but your posting still looks backward, Wayne is not consolidated and Warren is right?

Double Dipper, you are correct,I can’t beleive that its legal at all to charge me for IFD services when IFD has not and will not respond to Wayne township. I don’t understand how these tax laws were ever passed. Consolidation can’t come soon enough.

And do fireman really need to work these silly 24 hour shifts? I was talking to an IFD friend of mine he says he works 1 24 hour shift and then gets two days off and then he gets some other thing called a Kelly Day as a bonus. It seems silly that we pay firemen and women, to sleep, eat, and do non related fire activities. Couldn’t we scale down and pay less money for stations if they didn’t have to have kitchens, and bed rooms? Why not just work 8 hour shifts like the police?

I was under the impression that the homestead exemption will go away when the 1% tax cap takes effect. Is this impression wrong? If so, what is the new “increased” amount of the exemption?

You have to play hardball with the stubborn abusive types. Good one, Abdul.

Oh…and Shorebreak’s analysis makes the most (common) sense of all (as usual).

Wayne Resident.
First, yes firefighters work 24 on 48 off which follows FLSA labor laws Fair (Labor Standards Act). Firefighters not only cook meals they are assessed what is called house dues bi weekly and also pay for all meals, televisions, additional phone lines, all cooking equipment and supplies and the list goes on. At a busy IFD house the beds are virtually useless since a firefighter very seldom has a chance to relax in a 24 hour period. If you want to save Marion County tax payers money. Cut some of the 86 patronage positions with in the CIB. Shave ole Barney Levengood’s 200,000 plus salary. Cut back on what the city pays B&T and the other big law firms. Don’t forget Carl Drummer, Tony Duncan and the whole Center Township bunch with all the relatives employed by them. See who is in as a fix on the 25th floor. How much free 25th floor space does Bob Grand and Joe Loftus occupy?

Flipper: not all firemen in all districts pay for everything. In fact, it’s abnormal.

And, Loftus and Grand both have their own law offices outside the CCB. No 25th floor space. You were kidding with that question, right?

Crizzle: I’m pretty ure homestead exemptions do not ever go away. That’s not part of the deal. Judge Fisher hinted at that, but it didn’t take with the tardy, and sloppy, legislature.

If I lived in Wayne I’d be burning down the trustee’s house. What a complete nincompoop. Of course, he was preceded by a long line of Republican nincompoops. Because poop ain’t partisan.

I do think the Republican trustees out there were smarter. Which sounds like it wouldn’t be too difficult.

Heh…I like your thinking Abdul. Let the anti-consolidation people get a taste of what they had sewn. Sometimes, as my 7th grade teacher used to say, people need to be shown that fat meat is greasy!

try eating a meal out while on duty. Most times we *my station* go 2/4 times before we get it done. So feel free to give me your phone number and I will give ya a call every time we get back from a run…..

Now that property taxes in our area have just increased by a few hundred percent for many people, we’re beginning to understand caps; a control on the ability or right to own property. And “administrative remedy” is a state’s “right to abuse” issue; to take from people without due, coherent or just process… Why not skip the Constitutional oath all together & commemorate public service with a toast to ole Rome?

“borrowing in perpetuity” as in “Emergency Loan”. I don’t think there is a Township trustee in Marion County that doesn’t use them. I hear that the state is changing the name of the loans, but I have know idea what’ll they will be called. Also, is it possible that Township government could get tax dollars from monies that are diverted from school funding? I got that from a Decatur Township board member whom I believe and trust but I just don’t understand how that could happen.

Abdul,

Indiana State Representative Robert Behning gave a good summary of his concerns with consolidation (at least with fire services in Decatur Township) to the African American Republican Council of Marion County panel on the topic. It might be worth looking into. It made me rethink the issue and decide that there are real concerns with SOME areas of consolidation.

“Heh…I like your thinking Abdul. Let the anti-consolidation people get a taste of what they had sewn. Sometimes, as my 7th grade teacher used to say, people need to be shown that fat meat is greasy!”
.
For sake of understanding the dynamics at play, let’s keep our terms straight. It’s not anti-consolidation. It’s anti-centralization. Consolidation would be shared resources, not shared power.
.
Now I’ll address the “get a taste of what they had sewn” statement, in context with this discussion.
.
To make sure that there is no misunderstanding here, I’ll start out be defining my comprehension of the meaning contained within the statement. This clear implication is that once tax caps kick in (context of discussion), the anti-centralization folks will taste the yield of their efforts.
.
Maybe someone else can help explain this to me, but wasn’t the tax cap initiated, promoted, and driven to implementation by the Daniels Administration? Hello? Is that what the anti-centralization people have sewn, or, is that something that was set up by the folks who are PUSHING centralization? Am I missing something here Daw-G?
.
Furthermore, if we examine the impact of the tax caps on municipal revenue, any fool and his dog can clearly see that if you start closing up the dykes, the fields aren’t gonna get irrigated and the yield will suffer. Can someone (preferably Daw-G, but I’ll accept any response) please explain how this clear and obvious funding shortfall was addressed and mitigated when the tax caps were implemented?
.
Oh…. they weren’t? There was no alternate funding to prevent municipalities from collapsing? And that is what the anti-centralization folks have sewn?
.
Hmmmm….. OK, I think I get it now. All this time I thought 2 + 2 = 4, but unfortunately, I didn’t attend IPS schools and I had no idea that in central Indiana, 2 + 2 = 5. Thanks for setting me straight, Daw-G.

Thanks Mayor Bart!

Say what you will about him (and many of you HAVE on this blog), but this was his idea and his vision.

I think all this pro-consolidation talk is good. I just wish all of this support was around in 2004 when Bart proposed it, and NO ONE stood with him, except the Chamber and the firefighters (and yes, even Abdul- he was there from day one.)

Bottom line is: let’s remember to be consistent. The opponents now are mostly Democrats. Slap them around- it’s appropriate.

But in 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007, the opponents were uniformly Republican. They deserved to be slapped around back then (which Abdul did.)

Ballard turned his back on all of his campaign promises, Bart is a liar, and with the exception of a few, the entire CCC is out to lunch on major issues and financial problems that require solutions for the community rather than for private interests.
.
Yet folks are pushing to be merged under one large centralized power center that’s directed by these proven failures in leadership and honesty.
.
You couldn’t make it up. Seriously, you just couldn’t. Nobody would believe it.

Abdul,

Is this moratorium your opinion or do you have information that states Indianapolis will no longer make an effort after Jan 1st.

Just curious,

BBT

Well, I agree except good firefighters will lose their jobs thanks to their ignorance. Actually pouting is a more appropriate word. Trustee’s are worthless and the whole deal is a scam. You already know this of course but you dont stand to lose your pay check….