Sounds like somebody work up grumpy. What about those of us that will not lose sleep if schools don’t get an increase. Are you telling me that Government can’t fund the status quo? Maybe the Statehouse should give Marion County back their police pension problem as well sense the rest of the State is bailing them out. I don’t care how they fix the CIB mess, but don’t suggest the rest of the State doesn’t pull its load. What about your crappy schools, how much money has the rest of the State paid on that failure. I know my County is a donor county when you compare amount spent per pupil from the State here as compared to Marion County. So, just remember Abdul we are all in this together and if you want to make this an us versus them argument there are examples both ways of give and take. You can’t blame Legislators across the State because they don’t want to raise taxes on people to fix the CIB.

Troy,

Didn’t wake up grumpy, just realistic. This is not about an increase for schools, it’s really more about maintaining the same level of funding you guys get now.

Second, Indy is a donor county overall.

Third, it is usually the outstate folks who hate Indianapolis. But that’s how it usually is in most places that have one or two large urban centers, a little suburbia, and a lot of rural counties.

Actually, Troy, the content seems contradictory to previous posts Abdul has had on the CIB, posts I thought which were for the most part very well-reasoned and rational.
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“Economic engine,” “downtown failing”, etc…those are straight out of the Mayor’s bogus talking points he uses to justify the CIB taxpayer bailout, necessitated by the CIB’s excessive pro sports subsidies.
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Really this sounds like a guest column. Did Paul Okeson write this for the Mayor? Except for the snide comment at the end and some wording in the middle, it really sounds like something the Mayor’s people would write.

Paul,

Sorry but this is not the work of the Mayor, but my own. If you read it carefully, I am arguing that downtown Indy is crucial to the state’s well-being.

We could do this all day, but how about you come on the show next week and you and I will debate all this for one hour?

We have a habit of forgetting the reasons for sales tax increases.

Under Gov. Bowen, the sales tax was doubled, I think to 4 cents (those were the days). That increase was placed entirely in the Prop. Tax Replacement Fund, and shipped out to counties. County Treasurers were ordered to send out prop. tax bills that showed the amount of potential tax, and the amount which the PTRF reduced the prop. tax.

It was an insane economic shell game. And it had to be invented by a doctor, because the rest of us couldn’t afford it. It also gave local governments a sugar teat that allowed them to effectively raise property taxes without a huge backlash. That attitude existed until Judge Fisher of the Indiana Tax Court told the legislature to redo our property tax system. And then they dragged their feet for eight years before fixing it, albeit poorly.

Abdul is absolutely correct. I’m not sure, Paul, if he’s consistent. The recent sales tax increase was for the purpose Abdul indicated. Local school corporations build budgets 2-4 years out, because the state-required calendar year budget straddles two school years. The arrangement is, a large chunk of the funding has been shifted to the state and should be funded by the sales tax increase. (Altho in this economy, I doubt the sales tax can generate the needed funds…)

I hate to see the anti-Indy battle fought on this mantle. I’m not a huge fan of a CIB bailout, but the principles are solid. The state took over the stadium financing and construction. They did so to deny Peterson any kind of political victory. At the time, he looked unbeatable, and was a potential gubernatorial candidate. Hinkle and Murphy were railing on him daily, as part of a coordinated attack to weaken him.

The state funded the construction and operation differently than the CIB had in its past. You can agree with that or hate it, but it is a fact.

Indianapolis and the rest of the state need to reach a detente on multiple fronts. This battle is not new. Out-state legislators need to get a life and realize that a capital city has unique needs and budgetary concerns. There are multiple prime office buildings downtown that are off the tax rolls because they’re state property. And that’s just one part of the puzzle.

A little off the subject.
Emmis communications has canceled the Sky Concert after 26 years due to funding issues.

Maybe Irsay and his side kicks the Simon brothers could kick in a few dollars since their fortunes have come from downtown Indy.
Oh, I forgot, as Irsay says, ” a deal is a deal” and this isn’t part of the negotiations.

Maybe it’s just me, but I never “got” the sky concert thing.

Abdul, we could do that. I’d have to check my schedule out. I have a few hearings next week.
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I would though say I agree 100% with you that downtown Indy is important for the state. The problem is there is no connection between that and large subsidies to professional sports which is what the CIB’s deficit is all about.

“So if downtown Indianapolis was to fail, I am sure Hoosiers in other parts of Indiana would love to see their taxes go up to pay for these programs that they solely benefit from.”
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This is a perfect example of why centralization is NOT a good thing. It’s kinda funny that these “what if’s” (that folks like myself ask) are never taken seriously before a consolidation, but once the bill is approved, those very same “what if’s” are used to scare the public into compliance with tax increases. All we ever hear before hand is “it’ll save money”. And all we ever hear afterwards is “now you’re dependent on US, so pay up”.
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Those of us who understand how the deception works and ask the right questions are disregarded and labeles as irrelevant naysayers.

The issue is that the CIB is asking taxpayers (both those in Marion County and those from other counties) to pay the price for idiotic deals. Who developes a property without a way of even making enough money on the deal to be able to maintain the properties? Who gives away a huge percentage of the revenue (including parking and concession) of a facility, keeps almost all of the maintenance costs, signs away naming rights, and then thinks that tax payers will cheerfully pay more?
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I totally agree that letting the CIB fail (aka go bankrupt) is not a smart long-term decision. It will end up costing more in the long run. However, like a lot of people, I am about fed up enough with the whole “oh, we can raise taxes to pay for that” attitude of everyone involved that I am not sure I care if it is a smart decision anymore.

Can someone please tell me the amount of sales tax raised by Marion County, the amount of that sales tax that stays in the county and the amount that goes to other counties? I keep hearing how much Marion County does for other parts of the state, but I would like to see the figures.

Again…
It’s time to move the ball forward and force the CIB into bankruptcy. It is clear that we have had very little leadership for years with them, their accounting methods are suspect and irresponsible, and that there has been and is a conflict of interest in regards to Bob Grand and others on CIB due to their relationships with the Simons and Colt’s.
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As Paul Ogden had mentioned and I also have confirmed, the impact of corporate welfare for sports venues is marginal and in this particular case, detrimental to the taxpayers resources. Just the fact that the IMS generates an equivalent of 2.5 Super Bowls a year without taking a single taxpayer dollar compared to the multimillion subsidies of wasted taxpayer’s monies to get just one Super Bowl which will mean that it will take another 20 to 30 years to get another Super Bowl here in Indianapolis.
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The very fact that most people who attend Colt’s and Pacer’s games are local which they spend money at area restaurants and a great percentage of the car rentals are local, it seems to me that our local community–not visitors–are clearly pocketing the costs to help increase the profits of these sports teams. I am also concerned that with these sweetheart deals, the Simons have been using the Pacers as a tax shelter (purposely operating at a loss to write off expenses) which means there is little incentive for them to run a profitable business with the Pacers and then come begging for the public to save them.
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Abdul, either you are not understanding the real statistics that have proven this matter or you are purposely ignoring the facts which calls into question over your claims made in this posting and for the sakes of not going into conspiracies which I cannot prove nor do have the time to consider, I’ll leave that question for the viewing public to discern on their own.
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In any case, this reminds me of the latest chaos with GM & Chrysler as the US Government failed to let these companies liquidate through bankruptcy proceedings instead they thought they knew what was best for the marketplace and gave billions of taxpayer’s monies to keep them solvent which has only delayed the inevitable. Here is what I wrote to the Indiana Treasurer yesterday as I appreciate his stance in the matter during his interview on CBNC.
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Dear Mr. Richard Mourdock,
I wanted to take a moment to thank you for your comments on CNBC in regards to you defending the pensions of Indiana families who serve our community as teachers and police officers. It is quite incredulous that the Federal Government can violate credit and contract law because they entered into a legally viable position and it did not work out for them. If they did not know that there were risks in using taxpayer’s monies in bailing out GM and Chrysler while taking a subservient position to the bond holders, then they are either deceiving the public or they are too incompetent to serve in the confidence of the American people.
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Additionally, I want to express that the situation with GM and Chrysler is very serious whereas what is the use of helping keep companies solvent by buying bonds if the government can then give them taxpayer’s monies then take a step ahead of the bond holders if these companies liquidate? Why would anyone take such a ridiculous risk?
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If the courts rule against the bond holders, then this will set a major precedence across our nation and scare away investors from buying bonds, thus practically freezing up the capitalization needed to help companies grow and compete in the marketplace and even harm good businesses. The fallout of this ruling will be severe as it will send a message to all investors that the faith in our credit laws will be practically destroyed and that our money is no longer good investing in America which will cause an exodus of capital into other “safer” markets.
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We are in very interesting times…

I guess I don’t see the connection between taxpayers giving the Pacers $15 million more a year so the team can make 100% profit on Conseco Fieldhouse without having to cover expenses and the success of downtown Indianapolis. The mayor is trying to connect two completely unrelated things.

I agree with Paul regarding the $15 million for the Pacers.

Wouldn’t any smart business person try to shift expenses to others to maximize profit?

Only issue here is that its our money and our representatives don’t need to be stupid enough to accept those expenses.

It’s not a “public private partnership” if the public is being used as a doormat!

I would think a new $15 million ANNUAL taxpayer subsidy would be better utilized to increase the tax base by attracting a new corporate headquarters or business operation than wasting it on satisfying team owner egos by creating subsidy parity between two wealthy sports teams.

Any objective analysis would clearly show that the central Indiana convention/hospitality business is not fueled by either the Pacers or the Colts. Heck the canceled Sky Concert brought just as many people downtown than any game.

Still not convinced the “out state” should bail out “none to smart decisions” made about downtown Indianapolis. Heck, bet there are several cities who would like to have the state capitol located there and the resulting sales taxes associated with the various government office workers and attendees. Guess us out staters just don’t appreciate the many contributions to our welfare being made by the expenditures made by people in downtown Indy. Gee, maybe the management of affairs all the way around should be the model in my small town

Jack,

You do realize that Indianapolis doesn’t see a red penny from sales tax (except F&B tax that goes directly to the CIB). Nor do we see a red cent from the 100,000+ people that drive on our streets everyday to earn a living in Marion County, only to take their income tax back to the county of residency. That is unfair and I am tired of it. Fine- move the state capitol and all state/federal government property. That way we free up the billions in lost AV to develop and finally collect property taxes on.

BB- I’m going to follow your lead and recommend that all companies inside MC either mandate that employees must live within MC, or that they relocate to another county. That’ll help, right?

Ever since one man,one vote was shoved down our throats most of Indiana has seen Indianapolis as hogs at the trough. The resentment is real in the rest of the State and has operated to deny Indianapolis based legislators higher offices until Mitch came along and spent a year everywhere but Indianapolis.

Once again we hear about how much money the stadiums generate. If they generate so much money then why is the city broke? Why is the CIB broke? Where is all this money? What did this state do before all the lottery funds? Where is that money? Cell phone taxes, Where is that money. Casinos? Money? The list goes on and on. Blah Blah Blah, show me the money……….