Bet on the C.I.B.?
What’s old is new again. The Indianapolis Star is reporting this morning that State Representative Bill Crawford is proposing a casino for downtown Indianapolis in order to help close the Capital Improvement Board’s $47 million operational deficit.
Crawford is proposing putting 1500 slot machines in downtown Indy. The revenue from the gaming tax on the machines would raise about $20 million.
Reaction has been cool to out right opposed from the usual suspects.
However, here is something for lawmakers and policy makers to think about. The public is opposed to raising taxes. The Colts have basically said hell will freeze over before they contribute another dime to Lucas Oil. The Pacers are broke. And there is only so much the CIB can cut before it becomes counter productive.
So under those circumstances, if anyone has a better idea on how to solve this problem, under this current climate, I’m all ears.
April 10th, 2009 at 7:00 am
Paul Ogden and Gary Welsh said it: Bankruptcy.
Break the contract that’s breaking out backs and make it one that’s fair to everyone.
April 10th, 2009 at 7:01 am
“our backs”
April 10th, 2009 at 7:05 am
Here we go again with the Casino idea again. Didn’t we just ease off the tax payments from a particular Casino, in effect a mini-bailout? If they can’t support themselves, much less reach their payment agreements, why would we toy with the prospect of another one to be bailed out?
April 10th, 2009 at 7:15 am
“The Colts have basically said hell will freeze over before they contribute another dime to Lucas Oil. The Pacers are broke”
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Where in the hell is ALL of the vast amount of MONEY that these sports teams were supposed to bring to town? All I see is tax, tax, tax.
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I agree with bankruptcy.
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I don’t disagree with gambling. I do however disagree with it simply to generate tax revenue to save these sports teams, and the CIB.
April 10th, 2009 at 7:29 am
I’ve searched the Star’s news archives, Paul, and I don’t see anywhere that the legislature has granted a tax payment abatement to any casinos. I could’ve missed it. Help me out–is this reality?
Indiana long ago gave in to the sugar teat of gambling money. The casinos near Indy–Shelbyville and Anderson–have purchased several legislaors with their campaign funds. THey’re not supposed to directly contribubte, but they channel money. Hell the casinos hired a former mediocre legislator to be their chief lobbyist.
There’s no way in hell they will allow a casino in downtown Indy, to compete with their interests.
I personally don’t care any more, and ya gotta hand it to Crawford for trying. I thought he was brain dead a long time ago.
April 10th, 2009 at 8:05 am
We all know that Indiana Live and the other outfit in Anderson will be vehemently oppossed to this…so why not work within that contraint and give them both first right of refusal for not one but 2 downtown casinos?
Or
What about setting up some sort of legislative action that stipulates if there is an “event” (convention, Final Four, Super Bowl, etc) that draws over X amount of people to downtown Indianapolis, these two outfits are allowed to open up their casinos on a temporary basis.
I know on first thought this may seem to be a ridiculous idea…but right now we’re beyond the usual suspects as far as ideas go. I don’t think it’s too much to ask a casino to be able to set something up on a temporary basis.
Obviously would have to study the business model but it does two things…it gives downtown another “venue” when lots of visitors are here and keeps the casinos from setting up shop permanently and bringing all the social issues that come with it.
This solution wouldn’t solve all the problems but it might help bridge the gap.
April 10th, 2009 at 8:23 am
I am all for adding casinos to downtown, but if you are going to have gambling make sure it includes craps, blackjack and poker at least also. I never understood why someone would do half of a casino.
April 10th, 2009 at 8:24 am
Didn’t Indy Live and Hoosier Park give up 100 slot machine license already?
April 10th, 2009 at 8:34 am
A casino is the missing piece downtown. Put it where the people are, the tourist. Look to Niagara Falls for an example.
April 10th, 2009 at 9:24 am
So now we’re gonna save the Titanic by rearranging the deck chairs? Which gambling outfit is gonna profit from this new escapade?
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Here’s a better solution:
Prosecute the folks who’ve been involved in RICO activities with the peashakes, then find a management team to run them and tax it at 100%, minus operating costs.
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We’ve got thousands of folks who are throwing their money away already – let’s make it legal and put the profits to work rather than keeping it illegal and enabling RICO corruption and all of the resulting criminal activities – like money laundering and police/prosecutor protection.
April 10th, 2009 at 9:31 am
LOL @ Crawford! He knows this has a snow ball’s chance in hades of happening. I **THINK** it was either the democrats on the old CCC or Peterson himself who first threw this out a few years back in order to raise revenue.
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I think of this idea now as I did back then: It’s a veiled attempt to appear to be throwing out “solutions” knowing it will fail. That way the people offering the solutions can shrug their shoulders and say, “Well we tried. Now we need to do x,y, and z.”
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The first poster on this thread said what I was thinking when Abdul posed the question. Declare bankruptcy, reorganize, and live to fight another day.
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p.s. A rep from the mayor’s office is on the air right now discussing this very thing.
April 10th, 2009 at 9:41 am
I’ve said this before – only partly facetiously. Give the stadium outright to the Colts, along with the bills for maintenance, operation and PROPERTY TAXES. The property taxes would help offset the taxes already levied for construction, and we could probably reduce the food and beverage tax instead of increasing it. Same deal for the Pacers and Conseco. Having gone that far, we could then eliminate the CIB entirely and save a few more millions of dollars on its cost to operate.
April 10th, 2009 at 9:53 am
shorebreak: The peashake shake down ain’t ever going to happen. They’ve been there for decades and IPD has always turned a blind eye to it except for the occasional “raid.” The only reason you see the increased raids, I believe, are due to the…ummmm…different demographics moving back into the city limits and witnessing what has been happening long before they were there.
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A lot of these peashakes are in the 7th district and I won’t mention which congressional rep was often seen at them before this rep was went to Washington.
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Are you part of the new demographic to the greater city limits area?
April 10th, 2009 at 10:03 am
Correction: Bob Grand was on the radio just now and he’s adamant there will be NO bankruptcy whatsoever.
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April 10th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Make the Simon Bother’s prove the Pacers are broke make them open up their books. Why is the Fever still playing basketball if it’s a losing operation. Call Irsay and the Colts bluff if they won’t play ball then pull the downtown security detail of cops when there is a game or practice being played. Make going downtown pure and utter hell for a game. Turn the lights off and the heat and air conditioning way down when there isn’t a event at the stadium. String Peterson up before games and let fans throw footballs at him for giving the Colts such an asinine contract. Ok, we can’t do that but I would be first in line to bounce one off of his head! ;)
April 10th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Since they seem to say one thing and reality proves to be something else, maybe that’s a good sign, Daw-g
April 10th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Meanwhile, little attention is being paid to Senator Luke’s growing of government which we all need to know means the growing of taxes. The Crawford advice still stands, use small words writ large and talk real slow.
April 10th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Daw-g,
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The shakedown WILL happen once we overcome being defeatist when it comes to honest government. We each have to decide for ourselves whether or not we’re going to accept corruption. I decided long ago that I wouldn’t accept it under any circumstances. Status quo can be damned, as far as I’m concerned. I don’t listen to excuses or justifications any more.
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FYI – a government who allows corruption and illegal gambling, yet monitors and fines upstanding citizens for simple mistakes (camera’s, seatbelt violations etc) is 100% illegitimate. Their net value is zero and they should be called out publicly at every possible opportunity for their duplicity.
April 10th, 2009 at 11:00 am
Here’s an idea. Slot machines in the halls of public sector employment (state house & city county bldg.). Invite bidders like the folks from Smoke Free Indy, to submit proposals for its operation. This would “create” smoke free “employment” & “return” tax dollars from the remarkable value added trend of public sector “production.” There’s nothing more to think about, let’s call it a day, this is a sure bet.
April 10th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Here’s another idea: How’s about we set up permanent citizen tribunals to examine the records of every public official. The first phase will be a purging at every level of government of corrupt and/or self-serving representatives and appointees. Ongoing phases will be maintained to keep the replacements honest. Anyone can participate.
April 10th, 2009 at 11:30 am
Bankruptcy is the best option so I totally disagree with Bob Grand and I again ask him to cease in his actions in endorsing stealing any more of the taxpayer’s monies to bail out these sports teams and lets move forward to liquidate the bad debt of the CIB and renegotiate contracts with the Colts and the Pacers.
As far as the gambling tax idea for Downtown Indianapolis goes, the economy is going to continue to decline and people will naturally spend less on gambling. Just take a look at Vegas and even here in Indiana as both gambling and lottery revenues are down. Projecting revenue from taxes from gambling is not reasonable and will lead to what others had mentioned above–more bailouts.
With unemployment up to 8.5% (and growing), it will help fuel more foreclosures and thus property values will continue to decline. Earlier this week, we learned that mortgage defaults were on the rise and so I see a strong indication that with the recent Wells Fargo news, this is just a bear-market run and it’s going to get a lot worse here soon.
April 10th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Just a matter of time before the slime came out from under the rocks to advocate for the casinos.
There is a reason why the majority of the casinos are located on the borders of our state across from large out of state population centers like Chicago, Cincinnati, and Louisville. Its called new money, funds that would not be spent or taxed in Indiana without such a attraction.
Now Barden wants to move one of his casino licenses out of Gary instead of investing the money necessary to make his operations competitive with Illinois Casinos and become a attraction like Indiana’s Blue Chip casino located near Michigan.
I guess the politicians have long forgotten that placing Casinos in Gary was supposed to be the cities savior. They have written off Gary, their own morals, and good public policy.
April 10th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Why do they refuse to get rid of this stupid law. Abdul, tell us why it will not be considered. It would cost them nothing and the money could go to this purpose. Furthermore, it would not bother anyone if they did it.
April 10th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Considering the vast financial problems CIB faces, I believe the solutions need to be equally bold.
I think Simon Properties should payoff the mall investors debt held by the CIB to free up TIF funds and CIB tax revenues.
I believe that a bankruptcy filing allowing municipal financial reorganization should be seriously considered since the Colts and Pacers are not willing to contribute in any meaningful way to a solution.
April 10th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Simon Raises $1.2 Billion in Debt/Equity Offerings
Simon said it will use the proceeds to reduce its debt and for general purposes.
How about paying off the Circle Center Mall Investors considering this mall is 100 feet from your headquarters and you know the problems CIB/taxpayers face in meeting obligations to your basketball team.
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=AP&date=20090325&id=9728422
April 10th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Simon Property Group Inc. plans to hoard cash this year to purchase property that may come on the market, said David Simon, CEO of the Indianapolis-based mall owner. Simon made the comments this morning at a Citigroup 2009 Global Property CEO Conference in Naples, Fla., Bloomberg News reported.
http://www.indianabarrister.com/archives/2009/03/simon_says.html
April 10th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
The only reason Bill Crawford wants a casino downtown is so him and his ghetto mafia can get a cut of the revenue from it. This crook never gives up.
April 10th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
John Howard, I have not advocated the CIB filing for bankruptcy. I believe it should, however, wash its hands of Lucas Oil Stadium and turn it over to the state stadium authority, which technically owns it and is responsible for fulfilling the debt obligation on it, thereby eliminating a $20 million a year obligation from its books. If the CIB rejects the Pacers’ demand to pick up $15 million in costs at the same time, those twom moves combined will take care of most of its budget deficit.
April 10th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
i suspect that most everyone commenting has played the slots or gambled at a casino-I say go for it at Union Station- perfect place.
April 10th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
AGAIN!!!!!
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1. File Bankruptcy for CIB
2. Put all CIB’s records in the disinfectant of sunshine for all to see
3. Renegotiate bad contracts under bankruptcy.
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This is the only HONEST answer.
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(And I know that we’re dealing with sociopaths in our government running things)
April 10th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
I’ve heard that Indiana is now approximately the #3 state for gambling in the U.S. While vices like gambling, prostitution, and drugs are nothing new, the moral abdication by the state in deference to revenue harkens to Wild West cinema. Think of the films where the sheriff is bought-out from a part of the bar owner’s take.
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I’m not a religious guy. But, in the sectarian declaration of organized religion being too strident, this is the substitute? Individuals standing on their own two feet have declared their stand. Apparently, it’s to encourage vice to pay for sports teams, instead of demanding taxation WITH representation, frugal spending, and responsible parenting?
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If you believe in some sort of hell, are we inching closer or further away? And, are we “inching” anymore? What do you intend to do about it? I hope to see you April 15th. Anti-Tax, Pro-Acorn, whoever you are. I hope to see your peaceful, moral stand on the statehouse steps, April 15th. See you there.
April 10th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Shorebreak has my vote at the macro level and Melyssa has it at the current micro level. Both need to be addressed. However, they (those responsible0 will try to keep our attention focused on the problem and possible solutions rather than a much deeper exploration of total and absolute corruption.
April 10th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
Shorebreak, will you be setting up gallows and guillotines on American Legion Mall (for the aftermath of the “citizen tribunals”)?
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Melyssa, if the fallout of a CIB BK were limited to the CIB your idea might work. Unfortunately, it would also cause a dramatic increase in Indianapolis’ bond interest costs going forward, so instead of $100 sewer bills to pay for the deep tunnel, we’d pay $150.
April 10th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Guess what, when they approve the default of bonds on Monday by reducing a $18 million reserve fund below the required $5 million balance to pay the June 30th payment of $17 million, I suspect that they will be penalized by paying higher interest.
The bond holders will take over all CIB tax revenue when they default on the $26 million payment due in September (perhaps as soon as September based on tax collections)maybe putting CIB in default on Colts and Pacers obligations and negative cash position.(assuming no financing comes through.
April 10th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Thundermutt – gallows and guillotines? Do you really think they deserve THAT?
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I was thinking more along the lines of gathering the evidence in an orderly manner and packaging it for prosecution for RICO, racketeering, fraud, campaign finance corruption, gross negligence, yada-yada-yada..
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A few days on Monument Circle in stocks wouldn’t be bad …but guillotines? Really?
April 10th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Taxpayer, it helps to have facts, not jut “I’ve heard” in these situations.
In 2007, the last year for which figures are available, Indiana’s gambling revenues were 13th. It jumps to 7th in terms of taxes paid to state government.
Daw-g: I was not an early supporter of Rep. Carson, but he is our Congressman now. I defy you to find one clear exmaple or proof of his attendance at peashakes. I have questioned him about this and his Muslim faith limits his forrays int gambling meccas. He was even invited to address a labor organization in Las Vegas last year, but declined.
Old Guy: your idea might work, but the CIB operate smore square footage apart from Conseco-Lucas than within it. The Convention Cente,r VIctory Field, et al…
It never ceases to amaze me how folks pop off on blogs without doing basic google-available research.
This problem is huge, and if bankruptcy is an option, it would’ve been considered already. A default on debt, by any entity affiliated with a city or state government within Indiana, would have disasterous effects on bond ratings. It will not and should not happen.
Which is not to say, someone’s rear end shouldn’t be kicked from here to the Ohio River over all this.
And again, for the information-deprived among you, the Lucas situation is entirely a state matter. Period. We’re waiting, Mitch.
April 10th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
I say disband this so-called band of brothers called the CIB. Have the teams take over ownership and operations of the stadiums. Focus on paying off the construction costs of the stadiums and forget about any government oversight of the teams and their playgrounds. It’s time to rid the taxpayers of this cost-increasing knife in our backs.
April 10th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Bankruptcy is a clear option.
Those in our government who will not consider this, are actually aiding in the scam that has bilked the taxpayers royally from their hard-earned monies and we should organize all people to ensure these people never be in public office again. If we are serious about solving these problems, we have to tackle them head-on.
April 10th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Also, commenting about the many ignorant laws we have in Indiana, we should allow alcohol sales on Sunday. We should also allow car dealerships to sell cars on Sunday. We should end all “dance-hall ordinances” which requires an establishment to get a permit to allow dancing in their facility–a really silly law. We should move forward and revoke any laws that asks for permits and insurance to hold a peaceful public protest event–even though the enforcement rarely happens. A government that governs best, governs least.
April 10th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
TA- I stand somewhat corrected and thank you for your attention to detail. An outfit called the Rockefeller Institute has an online study on 2008 gambling revenues. Indiana showed to be #27 in lottery revenue, #6 per captia, and #3 in casino revenue among the states. I also stand by my assertation that pursuing revenue from vices versus pursuit of root problems and solutions is not the way to go.
April 10th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
Colts need $40 million this is how you get it. There are roughly 9 regular season home games (this does not include preseason or postseason). Lucas holds rougly 63000 fans. Add a $70.55 tax on every Colts (fan) ticket. Do the math, case closed. The Colts don’t want to pay, let the Colts fans pay it. When the seats are empty, and revenue plummets, the Colts will come around.
April 10th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Think Again – Well then do the same thing with Victory Field (the Indians have always seemed to make out) and let the convention people run the convention center – as city owned property if necessary. Anything to get rid of the incompetents at the CIB along with very substantial savings to the taxpayer.
April 10th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
Old Guy: Victory Field is a huge asset. I, as a Taxpayer, don’t want to give it to the Indians. They are a well-run organization and have been for 40 years. But they’re playing ball in a low-rent manner, albeit in one of the nation’s finest ballparks.
We’re all wildly flailing around like perch on land. The problem is really simple:
The Simons got Green Envy when they saw the Colts’ deal. The Simons may need a different deal, but a deal is in place now. We are not obligated to do anything with their deal.
The Colts’ deal is a state matter. The state refused to finance the stadium in the manner CIB had used for decades, and now there is an annual operational fund shortage. It wasn’t entirely a surprise, but the deficit is huge.
It’s Mitch’s problem to solve. I’m anxious to see how he solves it. He’s no dummy.
Taxpayer, I tend to agree with the failures of funding important issues with gaming taxes. But that’s the hand we’re dealt. No pun intended.
April 10th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
Personally, I believe that a casino downtown would be a nightmare that might eventually kill downtown. Think about it….it would not just attract the middle class blue hairs who throw their money away at the boats…..Every gang banger, pimp, hooker, drug dealer and hustler imaginable would be downtown…..shootings, robberies…..It would be a nightmare for the police and cost a fortune. No thanks…
April 10th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
Duh, do what I do when I need money; sell crack.
April 11th, 2009 at 10:36 am
karen k …. kinda like it is now?
April 11th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Mike…yes much worse…..
April 11th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Just say “No”, to playing a hand that depends on taxation or spending that’s no longer affordable. Just fold. How high does out-of-wedlock childbirth, need for police, sewer repair, parks funding, and the non-graduation rate become to be deserving of this Keystone Kops scurrying for sports teams?
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Again, more realistically, how much to stay in & how much to get out?
April 12th, 2009 at 8:01 am
TA – OK. Then lease the ball park to the Indians like the city golf courses have been handled. Haven’t they been financially successful? It still seems like a good idea to me to do whatever is appropriate to get rid of the CIB while at the same time addressing the fiscal situation.