Don’t take the stinkin’ money! There’s always strings attached. The more states that stand together, the louder the message we send to Washington!!

I think someone should research the political contributions from the Irsays, Simons, et al, and their top employees from the last 20 years or so. Then, list out all of the poiliticians who directly affected the monies and deals that benefited the Pacers Simon Properties, the Colts and the Indians.
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It seems like the path was tax citizens to fund sports/entertainment venues, transfer taxes to sports team/developer, transfer portion of windfall to political campaign funds, politicians using laundered tax monies for campaigns.
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So, we need a publicity campaign to shame those politicians into redirecting those (taxpayer originated) monies back into the capital projects that those monies were intended for in the first place.
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THAT, would be the best indicator of civic leadership and stewardship, in my opinion.
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Not that I will be holding my breath waiting for it to happen.

(1) if the money will still be borrowed and spent by the Feds, take it. IF not taking means it will not be spent at all and reduces the resulting potential debt or inflation, don’t take it.
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(2) one-year budgets seem appropriate until revenues recover and the direction of such is known. They should not be spending so much though.
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(3) the voters probably won’t let reform die
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(4) ticket tax won’t even come close as currently suggested. Pacers $15 million give-back equals $28 per regular season ticket (using 13,000 as a recent attendance guideline and 41 regular season games). Colts Stadium subsidy is many tens of dollars per regular season ticket.
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(5) The Mayor should stress successes in the areas of Crime and be straight up with everyone on the budget challenges and what will be done to help in that area, including the sports team welfare situation.
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(6) Employers should be paying to EMPLOY people as opposed to NOT employ them. Some kind of private unemployment insurance system should be looked at to replace government programs. It could be a benefit (like health coverage) promoted to potential employees or even partially paid by willing participants (businesses and/or employees) rather than forcibly extracted.
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(7) Are the bonds “bad” or are rates on debt just increasing because of the economic situation? How much does the Water Company pay to put fluoride (a known carcinogen in the water with dubious benefits to consumption as opposed to a topical treatment) in the water?? Can they save money getting rid of that outdated and now scientifically questionable practice? Ultimately, they will have to do what they have to do, but full disclosure on finances and expenditures might be a good PR move. Too bad they are a monopoly provider.

Unemployment Insurance is just that: insurance. Retitle it if you want; the current Bush-led recession is akin to hurricances’ impact on property insurance companies. What happened to that fund in the boom 90s, and in times when there was much lower unemployment? Were surpluses above annual premiums smartly invested?

A one-year budget makes perfect sense now. I saw Rep. Jeff Espich on the tube this morning, saying the last time Indiana did a one-year instead of two-year budget was 1975, “and only about a half dozen or so of us were around here then, and maybe we should’ve gone a long time ago.”

From your lips to God’s ears, Jeff. Take Bauer with you, and Dobis, and Pond, and most of the Republican Senate…oh yeah, is there still a Hume in the Senate? Numbskulls.

It isn’t the length of the budget, it’s WHAT’s IN IT. As for budget timeframe, take this simple test:

Are you willing to bet the farm on key expenses, and guess what they’ll cost in two years?

I’m not. A one-year budget does have an added bad stimulus, tho: it inflates the importance of the off-year, short legislative session. Anything that gives more glory to those clowns causes concern.

Give ‘em a one-year budget and watch the hell outn of them.

My two cents worth–not Indy resident so will not comment on a couple of things:
–Should Indiana take money—yes, need to get over the partisan politic thing. We can use it and otherwise other states will take our share and use it
–Budget—again need to get over the partisan politic thing and pass a 2 year budget not just try to pull a PR stunt
–government reform—most of the effort is dead as locals do not want more control coming from legislature. Okay to give locals options but if people want to keep what they have or change differently than the collective wisdom coming out of Indy then that should be a local decision—-less and less homerule in Indiana
–ticket tax—yes, let the users pay not the public which may never attend anything at any of the venues nor depend on their existence for their income
–mayor—the folks there elected him so live with it
–water–problem that must be handled as to needs
–unemployment tax–the most logical (if that has anything to do with the outcome) should be increase in employer payment—businesses will seek to pass on and government will have to have it as part of budget—this should not be from general tax revenue.

Isn’t it ironic that the CIB is looking for $43 million to cover it’s expenses when former mayor Bart Peterson gave the Colts $43 million to “break” the lease by moving them from the dome to Lucas?

Think Again: Your analogy of hurricane and surpluses is woefully ignorant. I’ve been in commercial/personal insurance for 15+ years. Granted it has been on the IT side but nevertheless I have learned the business inside and out. Your analogy is flawed and I’ll take Florida for example. In an effort to keep rates affordable for people who CHOOSE (not forced) to live in hurricane prone regions, the government forced insurers to cap the way they could rate policies in those states. As a result when a hurricane comes along the few remaining companies doing business in those regions suffer as the premium they are forced to take in does not cover the risk. Speaking of which I just read where State Farm, like other insurers in FL, have pulled out of it.

1) Ditto what Diana said. Look at the companies that took the bailout money. Now obama and crew are trying to dictate how they should operate their business down to who can own and fly a private jet and who can’t. How many members of congress have their own private jets so they can avoid the huddled masses flying Air Tran? lol
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2) One year. Who can predict economic conditions 2+ years out? That’s just nutty.
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3) No.
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4) Yes. Tax the people directly who presumably wanted the stadiums to be built and who are benefiting from it.
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5) Stress that we’re going to continue to take on the vermin who are turning Indy into a New Orleans.
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6) No. They will pass on the funding increase in more than one way or the other.
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7) I pay on average $65.00/month during non-grass watering months for water. Even with 17% increase I doubt Indy water customers will see prices that high…for now.

1. You have to take the money! Or rasise taxes End of discussion!

2. Doesn’t matter one or two years tax revenues are decreasing, we have to cut spending! Easier said then done of course!

3. As long as there are lobbyist hanging around the state house and politicians who have friends in the local governments back home we won’t see any major reforms until kick comes to shove.

4. The ticket tax is a start but it will not make up the 50 million we owe.

5. I would like to see more transparency in the finances of the city. Personally the mayor along with all the rest of Indiana’s mayors are in a bad spot with lower tax revenues and rising costs. Maybe he ought to review some of Churchill’s speeches from WW2! ;)

6. I thought the fed’s spending package was supposed to cover the problem. I hate to say this but Yes!

7. Hmmm can we get the money out of Ex Major Bart Peterson and Beurt SerVaas who put us in this mess? First off it should have been put in the trust with the gas company. But then Bart Peterson and Beurt SerVaas wouldn’t have been able to influence (pay back) their frends. Joe Broyles the ex president of the water comapny stated that the company would never have the revenue to handle a 1/2 billion in debt. NIPSCO bought the water company for under 2 1/2 billion and then sold SM&P and Miller Pipe Line and every piece of land that wasn’t nailed down (a lot of it on the reservoirs). Then they sold it to the city for a cool 1/2 billion and change. Then the city added another 325 million in debt for capital projects. Don’t ya love politicians!

Daw-g: careful, pardner: I know whereof I speak. Risk analysis is a key component of my job, and I’ll retire in three years after 40 very successful years in the biz.

It’s not a perfect science. The unexpected sometimes throws a huge punch. But the process is:

Actuaries and risk analysts rate Unemployment Insurance Funds. Their analyses help the state set the insurance rate. The analyses are strinkingly similar to property companies’ risk ratings. Income in, projected expenses out.

The Florida example is timely: I own property there, I rent it, and State Farm has been my insurer here and there for over three decades. In Fla., a state risk pool is available to all property owners. Has been since 1975. Ideal? Hell no. But it offers insurance which my mortgager requires.

You were pretty wide with your paintbrush and insult: do you actually know how the state UI Fund works, and do you have a suggestion to fix it? Don’t you wonder where the past years’ surpluses went, and how they were invested?

I guess I could resort to a flippant answer, like: there’s a reason most insurers don’t let the IT guys anywhere near the big decisions.

But that would be wrong, huh?

Before givng a final weigh-in on taking the money, I need a question answered: What are the caveats? Are their any requirements that must be met in order to receive the money? Is there a requirement that States must cede some level of control to the Federal government in return for a bailout?
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I’ve noticed that in the last several weeks, over 20 states have passed resolutions to re-affirm their sovereignty ads independent State who are bound only to the terms of the US Constitution. Is there a correlation between these activities and the new bailout?
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Until these kinds of questions are answered, I don’t believe that anyone can offer an informed or objective opinion on whether or not Indiana should accept the bailout.

Correction “…as independent States…”

Yikes! Where is all of that coming from? Your blah-blah aside you are dead wrong to associate “surpluses” in insurance with hurricanes. Again, using Florida as an example the government has forced insurers in the state to take on risk at a capped rate.
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Speaking of the state-run Florida insurance pool, are you aware of how that is being funded? Insurers who operate in the state must contribute to it based off a formula that involves its earned premium.
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The point is the government has, through its machinations of the local industry, brought pain and suffering to the very people it was trying to protect by keeping premiums low. Hardly a good example for you to use. Surely with all of your years of “risk analysis” you can see that? Then again 40 years doesn’t mean you were very good at your job.

stimulus money
Pride says ‘no’ but it’s going to go somewhere now, so might as well be to us.

one-year budget
Yes, we need a closer watch on their antics. Two years is too long between.

government reform dead
Probably. Greed seems to be unconquerable.

ticket tax
Don’t take the easy out, deal with the real problem – we give away too much to the teams – or else it will continue to be a problem.

State of the City?
I would like the Mayor to change his tune and get tough – there are not supposed to be wimpy Marines!

employers pay more?
Taxes never solved any problem, only defer them.

Indianapolis Water
First show me the exec’s sacrifice in this and maybe I’ll be more willing accept mine.

Daw-g…the Florida state pool is funded with insurer and insured money. In about a 60-40 ratio in good years. Last fiscal year, the Insurance Commissioner had to step forward and advocate taxpayer dollars going into the fund. It is technically solvent, but its future, at current funding ratios and rates, is cloudy.

Indiana has a similarly-organized pool for those who have chronic illness and cannot find private insurance. As with any pool, if catastrophic payouts occur, it will need injections beyond the normal amount. It has grown in huge terms in recent years. It is solvent…for now.

Read again: I did not associate UI surpluses with hurricanes. I merrely asked a question, and the Florida pool is a lot more transparent, I guess. There were some UI surpluses in past years: I’d just like to know how they were invested, for these “rainy days”

Damn, man, you need to get on decaf and pay attention.

As for my job, well…my employers have been very happy, ditto our customers the folks whom I manage. I’ve seen three of these “recessions” and watched my company weather them all, not without grief. Overall, it’s been a good run.

The water company need one big audit and Veola needs to return to France. Incorrect readings every two months, takes 45 days to get final reading billing, Due to excessive estimated bills requiring constant monitoring lest you are cheated, and calls to them to fix. Non recording of payment took 5 phone calls, one letter with copy of cancelled check, and one fax with copy of cancelled check due to non posting and claims of not receiving first letter, the list goes on. Who’s suing them? Add these complaints to the list and Mayor –fire Veola. Investigate just what is the real story on these bonds and the use of the money. Last: we have been paying this sewer user charge for a long time before they decided they actually needed to upgrade the sewer system- where did they squander that? Which goes to show how good the government runs things.

Two months ago my water bill stated that I gave 7 units back to the Eagle Creek Reservoir, so I got a $7 refund on my water bill. That helped offset the $80 bill I got the next month and the $20 bill the month after that. I’m trying to understand exactly how I can use the same amount of water every month, and the bill is always different. I mean, I don’t remember trying to shove several hundred gallons of water up my kitchen faucet…

Post one, by Diana and post two by varangianguard say all we need to know. Everthing else is a distraction from these basic principles. We continue to be led into the giggle weeds of discussions while the issues of principle and policy flow right by.
This is why I predict that only with a major social upheavel will most citizens come out of the weeds and begin to dam the underlying flow. But, I digress:
No; yes; yes; a start; intelligence; yes; and I don’t have a clue.

(1) Not taking the stimulus money would be stupid. We need it just as much as anyone else. The Governors taling against are only doing it for political reasons, and they will end up taking the money.

(2) Passing a one year budget is smart because we don’t know if the revenues will be more or less next year, so it’s too hard to plan for two years in these challenging economic times.

10-4 to the comments from Ash. If they can charge for bad bonds how can I charge someone for losses in my 401K plan? Anyway I can get some stimulus $$$ to help with my offset?

TA:
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>I merrely asked a question
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And your question suggests everything was just fine and providers were doing just fine and like Bush squandered surpluses. As evidence by FL, everything was far from fine. The government created a mess in its attempts to make things “fair.” The unintended consequences are what you see now. FL is trying to fix the problem by creating more a mess. Had they left things alone, more than likely they would not be in the situation they are now.
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I’m just confused how “like Bush”, the insurers are at fault for a situation they were forced to be in.

As an “R” I say stick up for Gov. Daniels. He said in his State of the State that Indiana is not like Ohio and Illinois. We won’t go begging for money. Tell Evan Bayh to put it where the sun don’t shine. Don’t support this federal ponzi scheme. Thank God, Sen. Lugar had the courage to vote “no”.

Daw-g: Fair enough, but: you really should s-l-o-w down, read and re-read.

I stated that the Unemployment Insurance situation now is largely, make that almost totally, due to the Bush-led recession. That’s a fact.

And that the UI Comp Fund surely had better days during better economic times: I’m wondering what happened to surpluses during those years.

Like any good insurer, money should’ve been stashed away for those tougher times. Just like a season of heavy storms, when a property insurer has large payouts: past surpluses calm the storm, or premiums are raised.

And, sometimes, as in State Farm’s Florida example you raised, an insurer elects to stop doing business in a certain area. Trouble is, UI Comp Funds cannot do that.

It’s fair to question the investment and budget strategy of our UI Comp Fund.

I have no idea what you mean by the “govt. makes everything fair” argument. I have many friends who are receiving or have received unemployment insurance payments. It helps with expenses, but never replaces true job-relatd income. At $75-80 million a week, Indiana’s fund is nearing zero. The obligation is clear, indeed legally-binding, and they’ve got to come up with the money somehow.

The African American Republican Council of Marion County is sponsoring a Township Consolidation Community Forum on Saturday, March 7, 2009, 2:00 – 4:00 PM at Ivy Tech Community College, 50 West Fall Creek Parkway, N. Drive,Indianapolis.
Steve Jefferson of Channel 13 News will be the moderator for the event The public is invited to attend and ask questions to a bi-patisan panel of Indiana State legislators.

“Bush Led Recision” is an intellectual dishonesty. Don’t get me wrong, he was woefully bad and could have helped avoid this but, accelerated by his big government spending and lack of proper attention to economic matters, the clock ran out on his watch.
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The only purpose of suggesting Bush caused it is to be a willing tool of one political party over another rather than truly evaluate the economic circumstances and policies going back close to 100 years.
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It is about a half hour conversation to go through all of the causes and issues at a very high level. But the solutions are simple, but politically unrealistic under the ‘one party system’.
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Steps:
(1) Massive cuts in government spending
(2) Cut taxes
(3) Where taxes are necessary tax consumption not productivity
(4) Allow bad debt to be liquidated
(5) Allow distressed assets to fail and be reborn into productive ones
(6) Phase out the Federal Reserve
(7) Restore “sound money”
(8) Phase out SS/Medicare/Medicaid using ‘opt outs’ ‘buy outs’ and attrition
(9) Dismantle GSEs (Government Sponsored Entities)
(10) Start ‘educating’ our children instead of ‘graduating’ them.
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These items would eliminate a market distortions, restore economic risk to private entities instead of public, increase confidence in our currency, balance our budget, build barriers to excessive taxation, allow economic resources to be put back to productive use, reduce inflation, reduce interest rates and restore solvency to the government.
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Currently, the United States Government owes so much money that if we could tax the entire world’s productivity at 100% for an entire year, it would not cover the tab. Taxing the entire U.S. at 100% for nine or ten years wouldn’t do it. Selling everything our entire country and our people own … still can’t pay it.
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The seeds were planted and watered all along the way from Wilson, Hoover and FDR up through Eisenhower, LBJ, Reagan, Bush (41), Clinton and Bush (43). I fear Obama is just pouring gasoline on the fire.

I like Diana’s viewpoint of not taking the Fed money if strings are attached. If States really exercise their rights, they should not have to whore themselves out for big brother money.
Conversely, it could be argued the States will gladly accept the money, since it is overcharged tax payer dollars being returned anyway. If the Fed sues the State for any misapplications, too bad; we’ll gladly argue that federalists’ conversation.

Tune in two months from now to miss next month’s episode of “Stimu-lust,” an economic tale of avaricious woe. The headwater of the free market economy is individual risk takers, their initiative & capital; people who don’t see stability in the current climate (policy, etc.). Consumption is demand which is met / serviced by production. This low demand environment is a crisis of confidence (TRUST) in government & the rule of law or temporarily insane suspension thereof (that civility thing). SS’s suggestions are on the money, if our dollar is to remain the currency of freedom.

If you want to see why the republicans are losing their conservative base of people just to to http://www.logcabin.org/logcabin/home.html There is no real conservative party today.

Thank you, Mr. Shepard, for at least sticking a toe in the water re societal reform that must take place in addition to political and fiscal. Gasoline on a fire is a recurring, nightmarish analogy to me. I would love to be wrong and watch the stimulust fix everything.

Republicans are losing their ‘conservative base of people’ for a couple of very simple reasons:
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(1) a decade or two of COMPLETE abandonment of small government, lower spending principles. They held all the cards for six years and spent the way they accuse Democrats of doing.
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(2) younger people are increasingly just not interested in treating anyone as a second class citizen just because of who they live with or sleep with. More and more people are beginning to understand that government should not be co-opting religious practices for their own political benefit.
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On item #2. I am reminded of when I was younger and my grandmother would comment about the ‘hoodlums’ (to her – guys with long hair [long = Beatles style or longer]). Today, I hardly hear anyone talk that way.
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Restore fiscal conservatism, get off the ‘holier than thou’ social rhetoric and I’ll bet Republican numbers get better.

Spot-on, Sean. Post #25 was brilliant, along with point (1)of post #30.

Sean – here’s an analogy of the problem: Our village has been trained to believe that by drinking the water, they won’t receive the benfit of the kool-aid. How do you quench the thirst of people who refuse to take a drink?
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The challenge we face is education. You mentioned earlier that it’s a half hour conversation. That’s at a minimum. I could teach several semesters on the topic.
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But here’s where you are light years ahead of others who are gravely concerned about our situation: You offer viable solutions. That’s the key to opening minds and opening doors. I’d love to see your recommendations as a “sticky” that shows up in fiscal topics and blogs everywhere. Identifying the issues is critical, but even more critical is the need for realistic and viable solutions.
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I agree with Uncommon Sense: Excellent posts.