18 Responses to A SIMPLE QUESTION

1. Dave
   March 3rd, 2008 at 8:41 am

   The gaming system referred to as the assessment system, can’t be done “right” because it’s not the right thing to do in the first place.

   Market value is a transactional moment of truth (reality), that usually takes place at a title company to insure the fidelity of the transaction; a place where errors far smaller than $4,000,000,000 really matter and can really test the limits of errors & omissions coverage. What sort of insurance do the citizens have from such errors, caps?

   When public officials, like the Commissioner of the DLGF sign off on way-off standard assessments because it’s a lot of “hard” work and expense to get it right, and they know the county needs “the money,” understand, the only standard at operation here is GREED. Again, there’s no good way to do a wrong thing (i.e. robberies “gone bad,” etc.).

   So, Abdul’s suggestion is the right one, if it can’t be done right (after all it’s the wrong thing to do), it shouldn’t be done at all. Repeal is the only answer to this arcane system of gaming.

2. Streetfighter
   March 3rd, 2008 at 8:45 am

   Listening to Cheryl Musgrave, sort of pass the buck. A 4 billion dollar “error” is fraud pure and simple. I also want to know why an entire criminal investigation hasn’t been launched not to mention why haven’t there been some firings, Musgrave included. They have publically admitted to this, so why are they still around defending themselves.ALSO, where in the hell are all the lawyers in this city and why aren’t they busy filing suits for the public? Also, I am sick to death of being told we the public are to blame. We elect people to do their job and expect and have faith they will.
   As an aside, re last nights forum, I still want to know why we have to beg, grovel, run around the streets with signs, forming statewide groups,not to mention sending uncountable letters, emails and calls to this legislature to get them to do the right thing? Something is wrong with this picture because they still aren’t listening.
   Last, they admitted last night,that a little increase also in income tax may be necessary. Let’s see, increase sales tax increase, income tax increase = Bill Strying’s plan and Eric Millers plan but oh, no we couldn’t possibly listen to them. Okay public time for street protest.

3. Dave
   March 3rd, 2008 at 9:44 am

   Abdul asks about funding local units of government in the repeal / replacement scenario, and one answer is the COIT (which by economist Dr. Styring’s modeling) would be an average, per county, of 2% throughout the state, and which the Governor has encouraged (by extension of deadlines for adoption). This is an amount sufficient to cover the costs of local government. Have Dr. Styring on the show to explain it, but there’s one approach in a world full of options, if we LOOK for them.

   Another option to cover the costs of local government, would be that portion of sales tax that could be expanded to professional services (after the constitutional amendment to repeal is in place- what don’t they understand about no more taxes). The technology exists to account for & distribute those allocations, it ain’t rocket science.

   What we have now as was made clear at last night’s Meridian St. United Methodist forum (thanks to them for their hospitality and civic mindedness), is tax increases being sold as relief. Notice to legislators: people won’t accept an increase as relief; keep saying it if it makes you “feel good” but know that you have a sincerity problem, a clear indication that you’re not part of the solution.

   Folks in the Meridian Kessler neighborhood which is served by the Meridian St. United Methodist, were talking about a recent increase vacated or abandoned homes within immediate proximity of the church, an area where one property owner is reported to have recently filed for remonstrance against a neighbor’s permitted addition, on the basis that it will RAISE his / her property taxes (trending, etc.) !!! People who have lived in this once greater neighborhood for decades (it’s considered to be in dramatic decline by people who live here!!!, they might actually know- not good “internal marketing” for the city and state either), are fighting with neighbors out of fear that improvements will result in an even greater and unbearable tax burden. Consider this against the backdrop of last night’s forum, where unfortunately, our elected officials are stumping for yet greater increases and the status quo. When officials spend paragraphs to convince people they are doing the “right thing” -they aren’t. What ever happened to leadership?

4. patriot paul
   March 3rd, 2008 at 10:05 am

   2 thumbs up for Abdul for broadcasting this info at the outset of the forum. Other than a slight mention on the IndyStar.com, the Star failed to actually publish on Saturday or Sunday this monumental blunder that affects Hoosiers. Is there a news blackout? Did someone request a ‘delay’ in letting this go unamplified. The Governor is the chief CEO of this State and the DLGF is the State body that certified all the counties results. Shame on them. If willful..it is fraud, It negligent, it is an unconscionable and unforgivable lapse of duty. It is quite obvious our local and state governments cannot police itself. The attorney general needs to look into this.

5. varangianguard
   March 3rd, 2008 at 10:15 am

   Maybe assessors get the same “correctness” break that TV weatherpersons get. The best are probably correct about 15% of the time. What does THAT say?

   I wish I could be “toasted” for being only being right 15% of the time.

6. Jon G
   March 3rd, 2008 at 10:20 am

   If this $4 billion mistake is overlooked and slips through the cracks then, if I don’t happen to pay my property tax, will that “mistake” go away too? I don’t think so. Someone must be held accountable.
   -
   I think we need an answer to this question.
   -
   All the polls I’ve read say the majority of Hoosiers want property tax repeal. If that is so, why then don’t the legislators do the will of the people? Some may say it is not that simple but there are plans out there that will work. The politicians need to quite playing games and do the will of the people. People are fed up and heads will roll.
   -
   REMEMBER NOVEMBER

7. Angry Mob
   March 3rd, 2008 at 10:39 am

   Being off by $4 billion is not a mistake, it is a crime.

8. patriot paul
   March 3rd, 2008 at 11:03 am

   The entire budget portion derived from property tax is 6 Billion. How could anyone fail to account for a 4 Billion oversight? Too many Indians playing assessors and 1 big DLGF who ‘certifys’ a monumental understatement but bills homeowners for the difference, just to make the budget numbers work. The DLGF is just plain incompetent just like our General Assembly. Remove all incumbents until they get it right.

9. Red Headed Step-Child
   March 3rd, 2008 at 11:53 am

   If I were to make a mistake involving a fraction of that amount, certain parts of my anatomy would be served to me on toast.

10. Red Headed Step-Child
    March 3rd, 2008 at 12:00 pm

    PS:
    Sen. Young says that the new-found $4 BILLION windfall will only result in @ 6% reductions to SOME residential bills.

11. Jon G
    March 3rd, 2008 at 1:12 pm

    WHAT!! The games must stop. These people are idiots messing with OUR money and they aren’t even smart enough to know when to shut up.
    -
    REMEMBER NOVEMBER

12. Proud Indy Resident
    March 3rd, 2008 at 6:39 pm

    As I wrote a few days ago, but went unacknowledged by Abdul-Melyssa-Bart Lies-Indy U and the anti-everything crowd…

    Q: How much did the township assessors cost us?
    A: $4 billion.

    Q: Who was the first person to recommend getting rid of the township assessors - both Democrats and Republicans - 4 years ago?
    A: Bart Peterson.

    Q: Who blocked the elimination of the township assessors in the state legislature in 2005, 2006 and 2007?
    A: Mike Young, Phil Hinkle, Brian Bosma, Mike Delph, Pat Miller and Jim Merritt.

    Q: Who went out of his way to go to the mat for township assessors in the 2007 session?
    A: One person and one person only: Jim Merritt, campaign chairman of Ballard for Mayor.

    Q: How much did the township trustees (which Bill Crawford did try to protect) cost us?
    A: Probably tens of millions, but not $4 billion.

    Comments???

13. Proud Indy Resident
    March 3rd, 2008 at 6:41 pm

    JON G-

    By the way, when you say “Remember November” you’re referring to the election where you voted out the person who proposed getting rid of the township assessors 4 years ago.

    So exactly what are you trying to remember?

14. Robert-NW Side
    March 4th, 2008 at 4:41 am

    Abdul, surely you’re not surprised by the clear deference given to business, are you? Let’s take a stroll down memory lane.
    -
    Back in 2002, the General ASSembly (GA) began ‘phasing out’ the so-called inventory tax. This was clearly unconstitutional. There are also Indiana court cases that say so. For example, see State Board of Tax Comm. v Key Motor Corp., 404 N.E.2d 52, (1980). Quoting from that Appellate decision:
    -
    “Thus, the Legislature does not have the authority at all to exempt so-called inventory personal property.”
    -
    Another decision, authored by your buddy Randall Shepard, had this to say:
    -
    “Rather than overturning the Lutz determination that the tax was an excise tax, the Wright court simply agreed with the Lutz Dissenters’ approach in finding that the legislature could not exempt any property from uniform and equal general property taxation under article 10, section 1 except property used for a municipal, educational, literary, scientific, religious, or charitable purpose.” – Ind Dept of Revenue v Felix, et al, 571 N.E.2d 287, 1991
    -
    I brought this issue to your attention in the past. If you’ve done anything with it, I’m unaware of it.
    -
    I wrote to various officials in State government about this. Generally, I was ignored. Ralph Foley did respond. He said that abolishing the ‘inventory tax’ would NOT cause a shift in taxation towards residential property owners. Foley also said that there was an amendment on the ballot to “remove the constitutional question.”
    -
    Thus, the media and the legislature sold this amendment to the public as a means to exempt their residential property tax. Not many people actually READ the language, which, while positively abolishing ‘inventory taxes’, gave the GA leeway with the word ‘may’ concerning exempting residential property taxes.
    -
    In other words, our government was in direct violation of our (then) Constitution for at least 2 years BEFORE the amendment was ratified in November 2004.
    -
    Back in July 2007, I wrote to you about an article authored by Kevin M. Brinegar, Pres, Indiana Chamber of Commerce, and Patrick J. Kiely, Pres, Indiana Mfg Assoc, titled “Setting therecord straight on businesses and property taxes”.
    LINK: http://www.tribstar.com/opinion/local_story_209220831.html
    -
    In this article, these two gentleman made this remark in the 5th paragraph, “Further, the business community accepted other taxes in 2002 in return for the repeal of the inventory tax, which now comprises only 4 percent of the statewide property tax levy.”
    -
    I wrote to these gentleman, but never received a response. I also sent this to you on 30 July 2007. I suppose this wasn’t worthy of investigation, as I never heard anything from you, nor heard anything on your show.
    -
    I’m certain that your listeners would like to know what taxes the business community “accepted” in return for the repeal of the inventory tax. Sure sounds like back-door deal making to me.
    -
    I’ve also informed you that there are those in our GA who wish to amend Article 8 (Education), and REPEAL the only listing of property taxation for the support of the common schools. Yep, you guessed it, “Taxes on the property of corporations…” – Art 8, Section 2.
    -
    There is ample evidence that there is a movement to grant all manner of exemptions and repeals of taxation in the favor of business, while shifting these taxes to residential homeowners. “Business” is a creature of the State. “Business” has no inherent rights, as do real, living, breathing human beings. Yet our government goes out of its way to give all manner of deferential treatment to these “creatures of the State”, and shaft the human beings (aka residential property owners).
    -
    But, HEY! It’s only our Constitution we’re talking about, right. And your listeners all know how you feel about the Constitution.
    -
    Abdul, I approve that you dig into these issues. However, you really need to stop going into attack mode when your callers mention our Constitution. And we’re really tired of your “File a lawsuit” responses. Why should We The People have to file lawsuits to get our elected lawbreakers to follow their oath to support and defend our Constitution? Yet they sit around and dream up methods to perform end-runs around the language and intent of our Constitution.
    -
    As your buddy Randall Shepard says, “The words of the Constitution are presumed to have been carefully
    chosen so that each word has a meaning.” — 571 N.E.2d 287, 1991
    -
    Robert Cole (Robert-NW Side

15. huh?
    March 4th, 2008 at 5:35 am

    “And we’re really tired of your “File a lawsuit” responses.”

    But… he’s a lawyer! Isn’t that natural reaction #1 for someone with a law degree?? You might as well be asking a dog not to sniff rear ends.

    ;) Love ya Abdul!

16. melyssa
    March 4th, 2008 at 10:50 am

    Proud Indy…thanks for the great information. I never said Bart didn’t do some things right! I did vote for him TWICE, afterall. I liked it that he helped to clean up the area between downtown and my neighborhood that I used to call “the ring of fire”. But then he decided my life was worth nothing, used me for his own political purposes, and refused to give me access to my own city government.

    Our politicians should never beat up on citizens for small things. In the end, he could never even prove I broke a zoning law. And the burden of proof was on them, wasn’t it?

    You should try to find out how much of our money he wasted on that stunt to sue me.

17. Over the Whine
    March 4th, 2008 at 11:40 am

    Like we needed more proof that everything you do, you do for you Melyssa.

    -

    Why don’t YOU find out how much it cost the city to sue you? Probably not much more than the salaries of the people involved, frankly. It was hardly a major undertaking or a burning issue.

18. melyssa
    March 4th, 2008 at 1:05 pm

    Over the Whine…
    I’m not whining. I DID something about it.
    .
    I figure it cost the city about the same amount it would cost to buy us another cop on the streets to sue me.
    .
    A decision to buy the cop instead would have cost us all a whole lot less drama.

Leave a Reply